I think we've lost another word

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I think we've lost another word

Post by Flobster! » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:24 am

Extinction is forever.

Using 'bias' when 'biased' is correct has spread from Trump supporters to England fans. (On twitter)

Eg "the ref was bias"
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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:47 am

Haven't seen it.

Mark Twain used to object to "ice water", saying it should be "iced water".

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by The Mallard Missie » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:48 am

It would be a shame to l00se that word.
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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:49 am

I kind of miss "gay" as it used to be. There is no exact equivalent.

But if "bias" comes to be used as an adjective as well as a verb, I don't really see what we have lost.

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by fishface » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:53 am

I would be more inclined to think it was poor diction causing the bias/biased issue.

But now I will be keeping an eye out for it.

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by fishface » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:55 am

Then again I think too highly of people sometimes.

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by EMG » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:58 am

Trump supporters and English football fans making a spelling error? What has the world come to when two intellectual powerhouses like those are making spelling mistakes.

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by DCComic » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:00 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:47 am
Haven't seen it.

Mark Twain used to object to "ice water", saying it should be "iced water".
He was correct.
Saying/writing “I want ice water”or “you are bias” is further infantilism of English. Shades of expression are lost.
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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by VinceFoster » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:09 pm

literally a tragedy
I'm so excited you decided
to come over and beg.

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:13 pm

Explain what is lost by asking for ice water, DCC.

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by GLimpet » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:15 pm

Seems to be street patois thing in England with footballers and fans.

https://twitter.com/MrBigzOfficial/stat ... 0493233153

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by DCComic » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:20 pm

It erodes the distinction between ice and iced.
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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:35 pm

I don't understand. If one person askes for ice water, and another asks for iced water, and the wait person fulfills both orders correctly, what will the distinction be between the two things that are brought to the table?

Flobster says he has seen the adjective bias among Trump supporters. He no doubt has a link or two.

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by Flobster! » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:38 pm

I think I quoted them last time I posted this.

If the only occasion ice/d water was used was when talking to a waiter, no it makes no difference. But it isn't.
Last edited by Flobster! on Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by GLimpet » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:38 pm

It mek you pop your bitter gall, hear she crying out for ice water



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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:39 pm

Flobster! wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:38 pm
I think I quoted them last time I posted this.
In that case supplying a link or two should be even easier.

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by Flobster! » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:40 pm

Vin, this is not a dissertation. It's just as easy for you to search Twitter as me.
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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by DCComic » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:41 pm

If ‘ice water’ becomes common currency ‘iced’ is lost in tnat context.
If it is lost in that context it will be lost in others.
A shade of meaning is gone.
We’re one step closer to grunting and pointing.
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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:48 pm

I remind you that Mark Twain, d. 1910, objected to "ice water". And yet "iced" survives. How long will "ice water" have to exist before "iced" becomes extinct?

Myself, I think both words will survive in contexts where the distinction makes a difference, and perhaps not where it doesn't (e.g. in "ice water").

Flobster, I did a search here and found a post where you quoted a Fox News commentator using "bias" as an adjective.

I doubt it spread from the US right to English football supporters, though. I would imagine independent creations. I note that both biased and iced end in the same two consonant sounds. Maybe there is a tendency for a final -t sound to be lost immediately after an s sound. Or should I say "to be loss"?
Last edited by VinnyD on Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by EMG » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:50 pm

Who here uses ice/d water? Sounds to me like it would be water that has gone through a process of being iced, and seems odd. I'd just say water with ice.

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:54 pm

"It's "ice water" in my dialect. Although now that I think of it, no one these days would ask for ice water in the US. You would ask either for water, if you wanted water with ice in it, or for water, no ice, if you wanted water without ice.

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by EMG » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:03 pm

I'm thinking of my parents and grandparents, and I think they probably would've said "ice water" as well.

Here in a restaurant if you ask for water you get a bottle of water, if you want a glass of water it's called "service water", and you can ask for it with ice.

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by GLimpet » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:08 pm

EMG wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:50 pm
Who here uses ice/d water? Sounds to me like it would be water that has gone through a process of being iced, and seems odd. I'd just say water with ice.
Not me.

I say "the ref was biased" rather than "the ref was bias". I've heard that construction fairly often though, usually from black and other English folk channeling, I imagine, localised version of Caribbean patois.

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:10 pm

That wouldn't surprise me at all, GLimpet.

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by GLimpet » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:19 pm

https://twitter.com/CyleU/status/1017146555168681986

That Tweeter also says "deffo" - does that mean we've - OMG! - lost "definitely"?

A Nigerian here (commenting on Nig v Arg):
https://twitter.com/IjuaAondoaver/statu ... 0760311808

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:20 pm

The linguist Arika Okrent on adjectival bias.

Besides the t-deletion that I suggested, which it turns out is a thing, she proposes influence from all the adjectives in -ous, many of which as she says describe stances toward the world: jealous, oblivious, righteous, serious, cautious, meticulous, treacherous, generous, callous, pious. She notes that "genius" as an adjective appears from the 1920s, and that she has found instances of adjectival "prejudice" and "jaundice" on the internet.

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by EMG » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:25 pm

Obvballs.

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:34 pm

Heh. Lose a word, gain a word it all evens out.

A commentator on Reddit notes that t-deletion is one form of cluster-deletion. At one time we pronounced the b in bomb and thumb and the n in autumn and hymn. Anymore we don't do that, and yet the language survives.

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by dragon » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:26 pm

i think william safire wrote about ice tea/iced tea. back in the day.
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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by sieve » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:39 pm

ice water is an oxymoron
it can't be ice and water at the same time.
capital letters are also going away because I'm too lazy to type them.

I corrected someone that I had considered smarter and more erudite than me. He used the phrase 'tow the line' instead of 'toe the line'. That one drives me nuts. While 'tow the line' is a perfectly cromulent phrase, that's not usually the idea people are trying to get across.
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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by cowtown » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:51 pm

ice water = water served with ice

iced water = water chilled with ice, strained and served without ice, like an up drink
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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by dragon » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:52 pm

She is a great-kneed person.

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:01 pm

Good column, dragon. Thanks.
"Do I contradict myself?" Walt Whitman asked in "Song of Myself" in 1855. "Very well then I contradict myself. (I am large, I contain multitudes.)" Same goes for language; let it change at its own good pace; force nothing into tidy little boxes.

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by strife » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:03 pm

DCComic wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:00 pm
VinnyD wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:47 am
Haven't seen it.

Mark Twain used to object to "ice water", saying it should be "iced water".
He was correct.
Saying/writing “I want ice water”or “you are bias” is further infantilism of English. Shades of expression are lost.
Would you be comfortable calling it infantilism if I told you it is a trait of African-American English?
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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by DCComic » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:05 pm

Like axe for ask, you mean?

Also 'trait' is a bit loaded - breeds have traits.
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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by strife » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:44 pm

That's another. Is axe for ask infantilism?
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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by DCComic » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:53 pm

About as much as Arvo for Afternoon.
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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:04 pm

Verb forms in acs - and ax- occur alongside forms in asc- (ask) as far back as Old English, 9th century or earlier.

When Aelfric tells the famous story of Pope Gregory and the Angle slaves ("Non Angli, sed angeli"j, he says: "Eft he axode, hu ðære ðeode nama wære þe hi of comon." "Again he asked what might be the name of the people from which they came."

Chaucer used ax for ask. So does the Coverdale Bible, 1535: "Axe and it shall be given."

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by strife » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:08 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:04 pm
Verb forms in acs - and ax- occur alongside forms in asc- (ask) as far back as Old English, 9th century or earlier.

When Aelfric tells the famous story of Pope Gregory and the Angle slaves ("Non Angli, sed angeli"j, he says: "Eft he axode, hu ðære ðeode nama wære þe hi of comon." "Again he asked what might be the name of the people from which they came."

Chaucer used ax for ask. So does the Coverdale Bible, 1535: "Axe and it shall be given."
Chaucer used arvo too.
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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by plumsole » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:49 pm

I say ice water, but iced tea. Though, oddly enough, there need be no ice in iced tea- "iced" just means it's cold.

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:03 pm

i bet if somebody recorded you saying iced tea in ordinary conversation, no one could tell if you were saying ice tea or iced tea.

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by DCComic » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:08 pm

Nobody brought up ice cream yet.
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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by EMG » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:11 pm

Is it supposed to be ICED CREAM?

Mind = blown.

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by leela » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:12 pm

The ed has disappeared from texted. My daughters' generation say "he text me yesterday" instead of "he texted me yesterday".
Pass the wine...

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:15 pm

Maybe they will start saying "I'll tex you tomorrow." (Or ill tex U 2moro" or whatever.)

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by GLimpet » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:16 pm

wtevs

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by DCComic » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:20 pm

EMG wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:11 pm
Is it supposed to be ICED CREAM?

Mind = blown.
I tried to use google to find if Mark Twain might have used Iced Cream, but got distracted by Oyster Ice Cream.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyster_ice_cream
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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by strife » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:21 pm

I've had foie gras ice cream.
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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by EMG » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:22 pm

leela wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:12 pm
The ed has disappeared from texted. My daughters' generation say "he text me yesterday" instead of "he texted me yesterday".
Interesting. I have not encountered this. Or maybe I've seen it from Filipinos and assumed it was a poor grasp of English. Don't think I've ever seen it from a native speaker.

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Re: I think we've lost another word

Post by strife » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:28 pm

I haven't heard anyone drop the -ed from texted in the States.
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