Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

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Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by cummy » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:49 am

here is the article:

https://www.oag.com/blog/billion-dollar-route

so, yes, british airways makes over a BILLION dollars (the highest) flying between LHR and JFK. no other airline takes in a BILLION dollars on any other route in the world.

however, the most revenue $ per hour is not BA's LHR-JFK. the most revenue $ per hour goes to emirates on its LHR-DXB flights. so THAT is why EK has SIX (yes, 6) daily monster A380s on the LHR-DXB route.

5 of the top 10 flights are either to or from LHR. THAT explains why slots @ LHR cost so goddamn much. THAT also explains why BA does not want a new third runway @ LHR (to invite more competition in, resulting in lower fares), why BA is slow/stagnant in upgrading its premium product (because they know you will pay for it anyway), etc.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by k2w3 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:55 am

Amazing that #2 is the tiny SYD-MEL.
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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by cummy » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:59 am

k2w3 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:55 am
Amazing that #2 is the tiny SYD-MEL.
maybe because of high business traffic between the 2 cities. and also "Typically, these routes also include a high proportion of business traffic, later booking and higher yielding in nature.". thus, more $$.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by Lost Soul » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:00 am

To really compare who is getting hosed you should compare the revenue per passenger mile on a given route.

Alaska Airilnes has about 10 de facto monopolies in Alaska where they bend us over and we say OK.
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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by Steve_in_Exile » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:01 am

k2w3 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:55 am
Amazing that #2 is the tiny SYD-MEL.
I would imagine that's because Qantas dominates that route. I would guess that LAX to JFK would generate more revenue, but that American Airlines only controls a relatively small amount of traffic on that route. I could be wrong, just a guess.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:02 am

k2w3 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:55 am
Amazing that #2 is the tiny SYD-MEL.
Yeah, I asked myself that.

But having done the coach journey.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by Lost Soul » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:03 am

Steve_in_Exile wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:01 am
k2w3 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:55 am
Amazing that #2 is the tiny SYD-MEL.
I would imagine that's because Qantas dominates that route. I would guess that LAX to JFK would generate more revenue, but that American Airlines only controls a relatively small amount of traffic on that route. I could be wrong, just a guess.
When one airline dominates a route, the prices magically go up.
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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by cummy » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:06 am

true, lost soul, those are other metrics that can be looked at to get a truly clear picture.

PRASM: Passenger Revenue per Available Seat Mile. Often referred to as a measure of passenger “unit revenue.” It is calculated by dividing passenger revenue by available seat miles. Typically the measure is presented in terms of cents per mile.

CASM: Cost per available seat mile (CASM) is a common unit of measurement used to compare the efficiency of various airlines. It is obtained by dividing the operating costs of an airline by available seat miles (ASM).

ORGASM: well, ya know...

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by Steve_in_Exile » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:06 am

When one airline dominates a route, the prices magically go up
That's also true, but my point was that the chart doesn't compare the overall revenue generated by each route, it compares revenue generated by the largest carrier on a route.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by guruwil » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:07 am

cummy wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:59 am
k2w3 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:55 am
Amazing that #2 is the tiny SYD-MEL.
maybe because of high business traffic between the 2 cities. and also "Typically, these routes also include a high proportion of business traffic, later booking and higher yielding in nature.". thus, more $$.
Yes, its one of the busiest routes in the world, at one point I think it was actually the busiest. As you say mostly business traffic and Australia really only has 2 major business cities for quite a decent sized economy so that route is travelled well. I spend a fair bit of time on it myself. There are two major airlines on that route, but Qantas gets the lions share of the business market.
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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by mad hatter » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:24 am

guruwil wrote:
cummy wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:59 am
k2w3 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:55 am
Amazing that #2 is the tiny SYD-MEL.
maybe because of high business traffic between the 2 cities. and also "Typically, these routes also include a high proportion of business traffic, later booking and higher yielding in nature.". thus, more $$.
Yes, its one of the busiest routes in the world, at one point I think it was actually the busiest. As you say mostly business traffic and Australia really only has 2 major business cities for quite a decent sized economy so that route is travelled well. I spend a fair bit of time on it myself. There are two major airlines on that route, but Qantas gets the lions share of the business market.
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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by cummy » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:28 am

Steve_in_Exile wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:01 am
I would guess that LAX to JFK would generate more revenue, but that American Airlines only controls a relatively small amount of traffic on that route. I could be wrong, just a guess.
you are correct, steve. yes, AA could generate tons more revenue on LAX-JFK. but, there is other nonstop competition on the LAX-JFK route. AA offers 3-cabin service (first, biz, econ). all other airlines offer 2-cabin service: delta, jetblue and alaska. jetblue came in with their amazing business class product (called "mint") and offered a much much lower business class fare. that definitely affected AA and DL's bottom line. alaska (formerly virgin america) wasn't really in direct competition for business pax, and their business class seat/offering cannot be compared to AA/DL/B6. now, if there were no competition, AA would be higher up on the OAG revenue list!

and we could talk about corporate contracts that AA has to fly pax between LA and NYC.

and we could talk about UA's big-ass mistake of pulling out of JFK - and thus had no more JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO flights. UA (ok, well, let's get real here. it was CO/continental fucktards) decided JFK flights were not money makers. these fucktards only looked at the specific JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO flights. so the UA dumbasses pulled out of JFK. big fucking mistake. let me repeat that: big fucking mistake. so, by doing so, UA lost ALL contracts to fly biz pax between NYC and LA. (AA thanks UA for just passing those contracts over to AA). UA wanted to focus on that shithole EWR/newark. now when biz pax fly to NYC, they want to fly to JFK. biz pax do not want to fly to fucking new jersey.

also, another big fucking mistake oversite (yes, big fucking mistake oversite) was: UA failed to realize that these same biz folks (under the corporate contracts) also fly from, say, LAX-LHR, SFO-CDG, SFO-LHR, etc. so, not only did UA lose all corporate contracts between NYC and LA, but also all contracts to any other points on the planet. big fuckup, i tell ya!

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by guruwil » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:58 am

mad hatter wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:24 am
guruwil wrote:
cummy wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:59 am


maybe because of high business traffic between the 2 cities. and also "Typically, these routes also include a high proportion of business traffic, later booking and higher yielding in nature.". thus, more $$.
Yes, its one of the busiest routes in the world, at one point I think it was actually the busiest. As you say mostly business traffic and Australia really only has 2 major business cities for quite a decent sized economy so that route is travelled well. I spend a fair bit of time on it myself. There are two major airlines on that route, but Qantas gets the lions share of the business market.
code for qantas reaming pax
It really depends on your needs for flexibility and time of travel, I would say on some flights and some types of tickets you are getting a right reaming. If you are more flexible (and are happy with less flexibility) you can get some decent deals. There is competition, just not a lot of it.
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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by andybox » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:08 am

k2w3 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:55 am
Amazing that #2 is the tiny SYD-MEL.
Fairly well known in aviation circles.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by andybox » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:08 am

I believe it’s also the busiest route/sector in the world.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by guruwil » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:52 am

Just had a quick look booking two weeks out the lowest fare for a Monday flight is $71 on Jetstar (the budget arm of Qantas) $77 on Tiger, (no checked bag, no meal, no nothing, no changes no cancellation). The most expensive fully flexible economy is $470 on Qantas and $430 on Virgin. (Checked bags, meals seat selection etc, fully changeable)
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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:56 am

Now I understand the revenue figures of Virgin Australia

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by cummy » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:58 am

and speaking of the busiest, here is the list of busiest INTERNATIONAL flight routes.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... 576883002/

"...the rankings are measured by numbers of flights between the cities – not by the number of passengers flying the routes.".

"The OAG report counted only jet flights – turboprop operations were excluded – and included only international routes.".

1. Kuala Lumpur-Singapore (30,537 frequencies from March 2017 through February 2018)
2. Hong Kong-Taipei (28,887)
3. Jakarta-Singapore (27,304)
4. Hong Kong-Shanghai Pudong (21,888)
5. Jakarta-Kuala Lumpur (19,849)
6. Seoul Incheon-Osaka/Kansai (17,488)
7. Hong Kong-Seoul Incheon (17,075)
8. New York LaGuardia-Toronto Pearson (16,956)
9. Dubai-Kuwait (15,332)
10. Hong Kong-Singapore (15,029)
11. Bangkok-Singapore (14,859)
12. Bangkok-Hong Kong (14,832)
13. Hong Kong-Beijing (14,543)
14. Dubai-London Heathrow (14,390)
15. Osaka/Kansai-Taipei (14,186)
16. New York JFK-London Heathrow (13,888)
17. Osaka/Kansai-Shanghai Pudong (13,576)
18. Seoul Incheon-Tokyo Narita (13,517)
19. Amsterdam-London Heathrow (13,170)
20. Chicago O’Hare-Toronto Pearson (13,100)


the overall list of busiest flight routes (domestic or international) can be found here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_b ... air_routes

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by guruwil » Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:00 am

Stephen_Dedalus wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:56 am
Now I understand the revenue figures of Virgin Australia


Qantas and Virgin have lower fares than that too that are less flexible. Cheapest Virgin is $135 and cheapest Qantas is $180, they both include a checked Bag and a meal
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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by harry_flashman » Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:45 am

Typically, these routes also include a high proportion of business traffic, later booking and higher yielding in nature.
Any idea what percentage of the payload is reserved for freight since I believe that there are greater profits flying cargo than economy class passengers?
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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by matt_melb » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:05 am

Yep, Melbourne-Sydney #2 for revenue, and that is why we will never be allowed to have a high speed railway.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by GLimpet » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:52 am

Matt, no high speed railway for that distance could compete with flying.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by matt_melb » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:17 am

High speed rail should be able to achieve 3 hours city centre to city centre. That's better than 1hr 30 min (or 1 hr 35 min the other way) timetabled airport to airport flight.

(Back in the Ansett days, the timetabled travel time was 1hr 15 / 1hr 20 the other way. Somehow over the last 2 decades it's got 20% worse.)

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by GLimpet » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:34 am

matt_melb wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:17 am
High speed rail should be able to achieve 3 hours city centre to city centre. That's better than 1hr 30 min (or 1 hr 35 min the other way) timetabled airport to airport flight.

(Back in the Ansett days, the timetabled travel time was 1hr 15 / 1hr 20 the other way. Somehow over the last 2 decades it's got 20% worse.)
Should, would, -but can't and doesn't.

Take a look at the bullet train from Tokyo to Osaka, 2h30 minutes by the fastest train.

For a distance that is only a little over half that of Sydney-Melbourne. And still longer than it takes from bag drop to destination SYD-MEL.

I agree that three hours or less is the sweet spot for high speed rail but no city pairing in Australia is close enough to do that.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by guruwil » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:07 am

There is also the issue that there isn’t likely to be the traffic to make the high speed railway a commercial proposition so it would need significant taxpayer subsidy. Although I have heard of a consortium proposal that involves Government gifting them some parcels of land for new regional towns along the route, in return they will build the railway and pay for it by capturing value from selling developments on the land to be connected by the railway to Sydney and Melbourne.
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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by GLimpet » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:11 am

A train stopping at "new regional towns" is not going to be a fast service between end points.

It's going to be a regional service, competing with buses and cars, not with airlines.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by DCComic » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:19 am

GLimpet wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:11 am
A train stopping at "new regional towns" is not going to be a fast service between end points.

It's going to be a regional service, competing with buses and cars, not with airlines.
Maybe there could be fast direct trains and slower stopping services.
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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by GLimpet » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:53 am

Of course there could be. But you have numerous large towns and densely populated areas outside the major cities in the UK. Australia doesn't. Despite endless funds being thrown at decentralisation (i.e moving government agencies to country towns) people overwhelmingly vote with their feet and crowd into the big cities.

Sydney Melbourne is about the same distance as Aberdeen London.

Nobody except train enthusiasts and sometimes pensioners takes the train to London from here. They fly.

Even from Edinburgh and Glasgow, they fly.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by DCComic » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:14 am

The trains from London to Scotland are slow and expensive of course people take the quicker, cheaper route. A new modern service could do the trip in half the time or less. Sydney-Melbourne in 4 hours, and that would be city centre to city centre. Japan shows you what trains can do.
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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by GLimpet » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:23 am

Since my man in Singapore often flies up to KL for meetings, and back on same day, and KL-Singapore is the top international route for number of flights, it's interesting to look at the proposed high speed rail link between those cities (a good deal less than half the distance between SYD and MEL)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuala_L ... speed_rail

In theory it could, or as its proponents put it: "it will" , be 90 minutes between city centres.

Fairly flat terrain allowing a direct route with no major new tunneling or bridges required.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by GLimpet » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:27 am

DCComic wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:14 am
The trains from London to Scotland are slow and expensive of course people take the quicker, cheaper route. A new modern service could do the trip in half the time or less. Sydney-Melbourne in 4 hours, and that would be city centre to city centre. Japan shows you what trains can do.
Japan shows that even at the top Tokyo Osaka speed, you can't do Sydney Melbourne in 4 hours, and even if you could, that's too slow to go up and back on the same working day as you can now with flights.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by DCComic » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:33 am

Who'd suffer airports if they could go by train in 90 minutes?

Anyway, if the old tech of the bullet train can cover 400km in 2.5 hrs, a brand new service could do 900km is 4 hours.
There are already practical trains (not yet in service) that go twice as fast.
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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by GLimpet » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:36 am

Two "coulds" and a "not yet in service".
That's almost a winning hand.

Domestic air travel in Australia is not yet at the suffering level of Europe in summer but I'm sure it can be arranged.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by VinnyD » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:09 am

I would not have expected Newark to show up on that list.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by simon_in_exile » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:11 pm

Those international flight stats are impressive - anyone who underestimates East Asia should take a look at the top 20. I’m surprised Jakarta-KL is as high as number 5, but the others make sense.
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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by cummy » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:17 pm

guruwil wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:58 am
It really depends on your needs for flexibility and time of travel, I would say on some flights and some types of tickets you are getting a right reaming. If you are more flexible (and are happy with less flexibility) you can get some decent deals. There is competition, just not a lot of it.
but when we are talking about revenue, we are really talking about those last minute bookings that are $$$$$. airlines make the most amount of revenue on these last minute high fares. airlines really don't make any money (small amounts or many times negative amounts) on the leisure travelers. airlines like to fly between 2 major business centers and gouge business travelers accordingly. that's how they make their geld.
VinnyD wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:09 am
I would not have expected Newark to show up on that list.
if the list were an all usa domestic list, i would expect EWR to show up a bunch. why? EWR is a "fortress hub" for COdbaUA. prices out of EWR are quite high. UA knows that jersey folks are trapped at EWR with little other competition. UA has about 70 or 80% of all flights out of EWR. now that is a monopoly! and jersey folks don't want to venture over to JFK for a flight. so folks are trapped and are thus forced to pay accordingly. ditto for IAH/houston, which is/was the other continental (and now UA) "fortress hub". that is how continental (before the merger) made its money. CO had 2 fortress hubs, gouged passengers and thus made money. when CO rudely took over UA (even though UA was massively larger and massively better), CO couldn't come to terms with the fact that other cities were NOT fortress hubs, and that pax actually had a choice of airlines. it was a rude awakening for CO. instead of just reaming pax and forcing them to pay up, pax ran off to other (better) airlines. that never happened to CO before at their 2 fortress hubs. it was a whole new business model. CO is still adapting ... and probably will never figure it out.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by matt_melb » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:03 pm

GLimpet wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:27 am
DCComic wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:14 am
The trains from London to Scotland are slow and expensive of course people take the quicker, cheaper route. A new modern service could do the trip in half the time or less. Sydney-Melbourne in 4 hours, and that would be city centre to city centre. Japan shows you what trains can do.
Japan shows that even at the top Tokyo Osaka speed, you can't do Sydney Melbourne in 4 hours, and even if you could, that's too slow to go up and back on the same working day as you can now with flights.
China's Beijing-Shanghai railway takes about 4.5 hours for 1300 km. At that speed, 3 hours for 900km between Melbourne and Sydney is achievable.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by kotagiri_tea_planter » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:55 am

Population population population. I don't know the intricacies of a Sydney-Melbourne high speed rail line, but it can't be compared to Beijing-Shanghai without including the population differences. And that's before getting into the different values and goals of the two governments.

And it doesn't surprise me that most of the busiest air routes are in East and SEAsia given that region's population and modern economic growth.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by kotagiri_tea_planter » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:59 am

Italy's main trunk line (Turin-Milan-Rome-Naples) seems more comparable to Sydney-Melbourne in length, but again, more population centers throughout that line as well. Maybe Boston to DC on Acela as well in terms of length, but again not when it comes to population and number of major stops along the way.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by GLimpet » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:32 am

matt_melb wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:03 pm
GLimpet wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:27 am
DCComic wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:14 am
The trains from London to Scotland are slow and expensive of course people take the quicker, cheaper route. A new modern service could do the trip in half the time or less. Sydney-Melbourne in 4 hours, and that would be city centre to city centre. Japan shows you what trains can do.
Japan shows that even at the top Tokyo Osaka speed, you can't do Sydney Melbourne in 4 hours, and even if you could, that's too slow to go up and back on the same working day as you can now with flights.
China's Beijing-Shanghai railway takes about 4.5 hours for 1300 km. At that speed, 3 hours for 900km between Melbourne and Sydney is achievable.
Melbourne can't even build a short road tunnel when they've been gifted the money - you think they can build a high-speed railway for 800km ?

How long did protests , objections , special local regulations, spurious environmental approvals, sacred sites, bureaucratic inertia, protracted planning permissions and union & crony threats, strikes, go-slows and pickets hold up China and exponentially rack up the costs while building theirs?

I'd suggest it was nearer to 0h0m and $0 than any other number you can think of. And yet Beijing - Shanghai was still the 6th busiest air route in the world and climbing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_b ... utes#World

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by matt_melb » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:31 am

Yeah, well, we might have to get them to start building from the Sydney end, and see how we go.

If Beijing-Shanghai was the 6th busiest air route and merited a fast train, why wouldn't Syd-Mel when it's in the top 5?

Actually we do build stuff in Victoria. Daniel Andrews has a deal with his paymasters in the CFMMEU to keep construction work ticking over at a steady pace, enough to keep the union workforce busy but not enough to justify an influx of more workers. The tollroad would have required too many.

If Matthew Guy gets in, he'll have a similar deal with his paymasters the property developers, but (disastrously for Victoria) it would be for even more hideous useless apartments, and casinos, rather than the level crossing removals and existing freeway widening projects that Andrews favours.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by guruwil » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:28 am

matt_melb wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:31 am
If Beijing-Shanghai was the 6th busiest air route and merited a fast train, why wouldn't Syd-Mel when it's in the top 5
Because both Shanghai and Beijing have populations almost equivalent to the whole population of Australia
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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by matt_melb » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:19 pm

How is that relevant when their air route is 6th busiest and ours is third (or whatever)?

I think the issue is more that they live in a country where their government has a vision for the future, including infrastructure (though perhaps also, more troublingly, world domination); whereas we don't.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by guruwil » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:23 pm

matt_melb wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:19 pm
How is that relevant when their air route is 6th busiest and ours is third (or whatever)?

I think the issue is more that they live in a country where their government has a vision for the future, including infrastructure (though perhaps also, more troublingly, world domination); whereas we don't.
That too. But the population is clearly relevant because gives you the volume.
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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by matt_melb » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:32 pm

But you're not saying, are you, that their sixth-busiest air route didn't have enough traffic now to justify a rail replacement; and that they have merely built for a future time when more of their large population would travel (as ours do), so their sixth-busiest route would overtake our third-busiest one and a train would be needed? That would imply that the trains are currently running half-empty but will fill up over time. I don't think they are.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by simon_in_exile » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:54 am

GLimpet wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:53 am
Of course there could be. But you have numerous large towns and densely populated areas outside the major cities in the UK. Australia doesn't. Despite endless funds being thrown at decentralisation (i.e moving government agencies to country towns) people overwhelmingly vote with their feet and crowd into the big cities.

Sydney Melbourne is about the same distance as Aberdeen London.

Nobody except train enthusiasts and sometimes pensioners takes the train to London from here. They fly.

Even from Edinburgh and Glasgow, they fly.
Moscow to St Petersburg is pretty-much the same distance as Aberdeen to London, and the Sapsan train takes four hours with between two and four stops, depending on the train. I’ve never flown between the two cities as the train is so good.

Can’t see it happening in Australia though - if they could send one via Canberra then it could make sense, but there are too many hills if you take that route. Doable in France or China where these projects are pushed through. Id imagine not as easy in Australia or the UK where NIMBYs have stronger voices.
La ruta nos aportó otro paso natural.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by GLimpet » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:46 am

matt_melb wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:19 pm
How is that relevant when their air route is 6th busiest and ours is third (or whatever)?

I think the issue is more that they live in a country where their government has a vision for the future, including infrastructure (though perhaps also, more troublingly, world domination); whereas we don't.
President Xi certainly has a vision of the future. The vision is Xi being president.

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by guruwil » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:36 pm

matt_melb wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:32 pm
But you're not saying, are you, that their sixth-busiest air route didn't have enough traffic now to justify a rail replacement; and that they have merely built for a future time when more of their large population would travel (as ours do), so their sixth-busiest route would overtake our third-busiest one and a train would be needed? That would imply that the trains are currently running half-empty but will fill up over time. I don't think they are.
No I think the opposite, that the busy train route probably replaces a lot of air traffic for two reasons, firstly the volume means the train will be significantly cheaper and also I think China hadn’t had time to build the domestic flying habit. Another problem for Australia is that a combination of cost of labour and building here and lack of volume will mean the fares are not likely to be much if any cheaper than flying.
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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by matt_melb » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:57 am

I expect you know more about carbon pollution than me: how would you assess the difference in carbon usage for flying v train on present volumes Sydney to Melbourne?

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Re: Top 10 Airline Routes - in terms of REVENUE

Post by GLimpet » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:04 am

Electric trains use carbon in the form of coal that fires most of the electricity input to the grid.

Planes and diesel trains use refined hydrocarbons.

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