Women and Knowledge

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by Higgs Bossom » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:47 pm

Genius is making something extraordinary out of the ordinary.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by Lost Soul » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:52 pm

Higgs Bossom wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:47 pm
Genius is making something extraordinary out of the ordinary.
Correct. Like using a rock to smash bones to eat the marrow. And then sharpening the rock- see the hand axe.

And then sticking a sharp rock on a stick. Without this we'd still be sleeping in the trees, people. Thank that genius with me.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by VinnyD » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:24 pm

You don't really nead a sharp rock to crack open a bone and get to the marrow. (Or a skull to get to the brains.) Anything heavy enough will do.

And both marrow and brains are probably more important for fat than for protein. (Dpending on individual circumstances, of course.)

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by EMG » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:32 pm

There's a kind of bird that drops bones from the sky so they crack on the stones below, and then eats the marrow.

Male bird, obvballs.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by DCComic » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:33 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:24 pm
You don't really nead a sharp rock to crack open a bone and get to the marrow. (Or a skull to get to the brains.) Anything heavy enough will do.

And both marrow and brains are probably more important for fat than for protein. (Dpending on individual circumstances, of course.)
Can you accept the general principle that there were early innovators who were the first to use tools, that that innovation was an important step in the progress of humanity and that as such the innovators themselves were geniuses doing extraordinary things?

Can you imagine that for some of use writing and reading a sentence phrased in that nit-picky fashion is less fun and more cumbersome than LS's original allegory of the sharp rock and the bone marrow?
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by Higgs Bossom » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:33 pm



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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by VinnyD » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:34 pm

Do you really want to get into a discussion of that, DCC? I can if you want, but I thought I would check first.

If not, then why ask the questions?

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by Lost Soul » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:35 pm

Vinny's going to Vinny, and miss the point, as per.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by DCComic » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:54 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:34 pm
Do you really want to get into a discussion of that, DCC? I can if you want, but I thought I would check first.

If not, then why ask the questions?
No.

Can you imagine that for some of use writing and reading a sentence phrased in that nit-picky fashion is less fun and more cumbersome than LS's original allegory of the sharp rock and the bone marrow?

It's rhetorical, btw.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by VinnyD » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:20 pm

You should try to find out what an allegory is.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by Barbarella » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:19 pm

harry_flashman wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:12 pm
Barbarella wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:37 am
As a highly intejelent woman, I can assure you most men are extremely intimidated by women smarter than them.

If I ever meet an intelligent women I will be sure and let you know.
So you don't think your failure to recognise an intelligent womAn says a lot more about you?

I'm sorry I should put that in plain speak for you:

You're an idiot.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by DCComic » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:22 pm

Barbarella wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:37 am
As a highly intejelent woman, I can assure you most men are extremely intimidated by women smarter than them.
I knew you were scary.
Now I know why.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by strife » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:32 pm

EMG wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:32 pm
There's a kind of bird that drops bones from the sky so they crack on the stones below, and then eats the marrow.

Male bird, obvballs.
There are crows that have figured out how to use vehicle traffic to break open walnuts. It's really kind of amazing to see - crows are among the smartest of all animals.


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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by strife » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:34 pm

They understand water displacement with stones too.


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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by dBrother » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:40 pm

I've been robbed of my packed lunch by crows before now..
They watch, and wait, and pounce when you aren't looking.

Male Crows
.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by strife » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:41 pm

dBrother wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:40 pm
I've been robbed of my packed lunch by crows before now..
They watch, and wait, and pounce when you aren't looking
Why am I not surprised that you've been outwitted by crows?
I am Stalking you.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by dBrother » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:42 pm

Yes, I knew i was walking into that..

They were extremely cunning conniving crows
.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by jessica_fletcher » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:44 pm

It’s ok, a monkey stole my lunch bag in Kuala Lumpur
VinnyD wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 6:13 pm
Oops.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by strife » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:49 pm

A squirrel tried to mug me for my lunch in Chapultepec Park. Was not successful.
I am Stalking you.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by harry_flashman » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:51 pm

jessica_fletcher wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:44 pm
It’s ok, a monkey stole my lunch bag in Kuala Lumpur
A snatch thief?
Hello Flashman

coward, cad, lecher and knave-of-all-trades

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by jessica_fletcher » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:54 pm

Yup, ripped the bag and stole the contents.
VinnyD wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 6:13 pm
Oops.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by VinnyD » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:45 pm

A monkey almost stole the bag with my camera in it at Swayambunath near Kathmandu. I grabbed it just in time.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by veronica_inheels » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:13 am

A monkey unscrewed a bottle cap and took a sip of my water in java. On the beach.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:18 am

veronica_inheels wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:13 am
A monkey unscrewed a bottle cap and took a sip of my water in java. On the beach.
Is this lay up for you saying it could have been an Indonesian?

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by veronica_inheels » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:20 am

A male indonesian
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by andybox » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:29 am

harry_flashman wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:12 pm
Barbarella wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:37 am
As a highly intejelent woman, I can assure you most men are extremely intimidated by women smarter than them.

If I ever meet an intelligent women I will be sure and let you know.
Spelling mistakes when belittling another poster make you look much smarter than them, Harry.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by fishface » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:26 am

Heh.

I'm stoked that pub quizzes and cracking walnuts are a good guide to intelligence though. Well, mostly. Walnuts can be difficult sometimes.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by erkat » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:35 am

Scrubb wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:51 pm
[
What I've read is not that 'almost all geniuses are men' but that the super- high end, top of the chart geniuses are more often men. Up to that point - your every day geniuses - women are equally represented.
Anecdote not data story coming up:

Kiddo does classes for teacher identified gifted kids on the weekends (so it isn't just parents nominating their special snowflakes). In the early years the number of girls and boys in the science group has been fairly equal. But by the time it is the much older primary group, there are more boys in the science class. And I do not think that this is because the girls suddenly stop being good at science, I would guess that both the pressure to dumb down kicks in very early, as well as the teachers picking out the bored boys who misbehave and then get profiling more readily.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by Chip_Oatley » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:53 am

I know I was discouraged from STEM, in subtle and not-so-subtle ways.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by GLimpet » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:47 am

jessica_fletcher wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:44 pm
It’s ok, a monkey stole my lunch bag in Kuala Lumpur
Another (I presume) monkey stole my nuts in Penang, while I was holding them behind my back because of another monkey.

Is the argument with DC & Vinny about whether this was the first step to space travel and social media?

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by GLimpet » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:49 am

Don't get me started on seagulls.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by EMG » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:07 pm

A monkey and I grabbed my Pepsi that was sitting on a ledge at the same time in Kuala Lumpur, and wrestled over it for a few seconds, before the monkey let go. I saw him making a move for it and we both grabbed at the exact same time.

Surprisingly strong little fucker.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by DCComic » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:19 pm

GLimpet wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:47 am
Is the argument with DC & Vinny about whether this was the first step to space travel and social media?
No.
I think lost Soul's point was that the first use of tools was an example of genius.
I also think that it was clear that his example was unlikely to be the literal truth of the actual first use and that insisting on that detail being correct didn't add anything to the discussion.
But them Vinny was distracted by a shiny new mistake which caught his eye, and he bounded off after that one.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by GLimpet » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:22 pm

Oh right.


Genius is a human concept so doesn't apply to nonhumans.

How about that?

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by VinnyD » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:27 pm

Of course the biggest problem with LS's post was that he assumed without evidence that all the tools had been invented by males. But everyone could see that.
erkat wrote:as well as the teachers picking out the bored boys who misbehave and then get profiling more readily.
I don't know what that means.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by VinnyD » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:35 pm

GLimpet wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:22 pm
Oh right.


Genius is a human concept so doesn't apply to nonhumans.

How about that?
There was a colony of macaques on a island off Japan who were observed in the 1950s, I believe. The observers used to leave sweet potatoes and rice for them on the beach. The same macaque discovered two things: that sweet potatoes were better if you washed the sand off, and that you could sort out rice from sand by dropping the mixture in a still pool and letting the sand sink while the rice grains floated. Other macaques copied her and both practices became a part of the macaque culture on that island.

I think it would be fair to call her a genius.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by DCComic » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:44 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:27 pm
Of course the biggest problem with LS's post was that he assumed without evidence that all the tools had been invented by males. But everyone could see that.
No.
When people talk about 'early man' and what an early man might have done, the inclusion of women is implicit.
Everybody knows that.
I can see how it might be irksome to some women that a common name for our species is 'man' , but the 50/50 chance that the first person to modify a rock to make a better tool was female doesn't need to be spelled out every time, surely?
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by VinnyD » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:48 pm

Lost Soul wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:17 pm
shilgia wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:51 pm
's OK. We can do with less knowledge because we have the brainpower to figure stuff out from scratch when we need to. If you don't have that, you need to retain the individual facts. Sorry, boys.
Meh. I'd buy that you're much better at multitasking than the limited male brain.

But let's credit the real geniuses of the past who made our lives livable:
1) The MAN who created the first sharp rock, which allowed us to access some protein in the bones of dead ungulates. This was over 3,000,000 years ago. And it was vital to the quadruple expansion of our brains from the chimp normal. Please tell a vegan.

2) The MAN who created the first knife on a stick, which allowed us to access the world beyond the trees, and even hunt large ungulates.

3) The MAN who, while busily trying to make a knife, accidentally started a fire. This was about 1,900,000 years ago, judging by the people found dead in Georgia.

And then the women started gossiping to each other. Bravo. And thanks for the lingo, which was vital as well.
It seems to me that he was contrasting the MEN in each case with the women he mentions in the last paragraph, implying that the early human inventor in each case was male (an examole of the "male brain" that he mentions when disagreeing with shilgia).

Is that not how you read it, DCC?

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by DCComic » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:53 pm

"Man" = "member of the human race".
It's not a shockingly unusual usage.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by VinnyD » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:59 pm

How about "male"? I took that to mean "not female".

And "women" I took to mean "not men" ("men" in the "male" sense).

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by Lost Soul » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:01 pm

Men were the hunters, Vinny. Thus the sharp rocks were a male invention.

Incidentally, hunting the marrow of previously killed ungulates in the heat of the day (almost assuredly the key step between forest life and savannah life) allowed our brains to grow larger than the chimp standard. Which made the females more helpless at the end of pregnancy, and the kids more helpless at the beginning of life. They both stayed at home, which means that someone had to bring them food. And nothing is more nutritious or as calorically dense as marrow. Which brought up the question of how to bring it back to the female and kid. The answer that was selected for was the ability to carry things in your hands- bipedalism.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by VinnyD » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:04 pm

Scavenging is not hunting, LS. The scavenging you are talking about would have occurred before the increase in cranium size, by your own story.

But thanks for clearing up what you meant. DCC was confused.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by DCComic » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:08 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:24 pm
You don't really nead a sharp rock to crack open a bone and get to the marrow. (Or a skull to get to the brains.) Anything heavy enough will do.

And both marrow and brains are probably more important for fat than for protein. (Dpending on individual circumstances, of course.)
When you were getting all nit-picky here, it was really because somewhere else someone had written 'male'?
Whatever you say Vinny. Whatever you say.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by VinnyD » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:13 pm

This was the nit you were picking with me, DCC. Have you forgotten already?
DCComic wrote:
VinnyD wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:27 pm
Of course the biggest problem with LS's post was that he assumed without evidence that all the tools had been invented by males. But everyone could see that.
No.
When people talk about 'early man' and what an early man might have done, the inclusion of women is implicit.
Everybody knows that.
I can see how it might be irksome to some women that a common name for our species is 'man' , but the 50/50 chance that the first person to modify a rock to make a better tool was female doesn't need to be spelled out every time, surely?
Last edited by VinnyD on Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by Lost Soul » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:14 pm

Chimps hunt, Vinny. They just hunt smaller monkeys and varmints.

In that sense we were hunting then as well. But sharp rocks were needed to hunt bigger game. The million or two years of searching the sky for circling buzzards, and then using rocks to smash the bones, was the key to leaving the forest permanently. BTW, our habitat then was tree-lined rivers in the savannah/desert, like the Awash River.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by VinnyD » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:17 pm

That is more or less true, LS. But we have literally no information as to the gender of the first scavenging proto-human to smash a bone with a rock. Not even enough information to make an informed guess.

Genuine question (although irrelevant to the scavenging question): Do only male chimps hunt?

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by DCComic » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:20 pm

Vinny.

You now say that the biggest problem with LS's post (for you) "was that he assumed without evidence that all the tools had been invented by males."

But your post, that we disagreed about was;

"You don't really nead a sharp rock to crack open a bone and get to the marrow. (Or a skull to get to the brains.) Anything heavy enough will do."
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by Lost Soul » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:23 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:17 pm
That is more or less true, LS. But we have literally no information as to the gender of the first scavenging proto-human to smash a bone with a rock. Not even enough information to make an informed guess.
Poppycock.
Genuine question (although irrelevant to the scavenging question): Do only male chimps hunt?
It is directly related to both hunting and my scavenging scenario. And the answer is yes.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by VinnyD » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:25 pm

You also disagreed with the first post you quote, DCC. I am surprised you have forgotten already, especially when I just posted the post in which you did so.

I should apologize for an error. I said that everyone could see that the biggest problem with LS's post was that he assumed that all the tools had been invented by males." I had assumed that everyone would think that by "male" he meant "male", but it now appears I was wrong. I apologize.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by Lost Soul » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:28 pm

Making sharp rocks out of round rocks was invented by a male man.
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