Women and Knowledge

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by VinnyD » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:30 pm

Both male and female chimps hunt.
Males do more hunting, but females do more hunting with tools.

That may be, LS, but (a) we don't know, and (b) you are probably right that among the earliest uses of tools was breaking open scavenged bones, for which as I nitpickingly said, sharpness is not at all necessary.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by DCComic » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:33 pm

Vinny. This is the first post of yours that I quoted. This is what we were arguing about. Have you had your tea yet?
DCComic wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:33 pm
VinnyD wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:24 pm
You don't really nead a sharp rock to crack open a bone and get to the marrow. (Or a skull to get to the brains.) Anything heavy enough will do.

And both marrow and brains are probably more important for fat than for protein. (Dpending on individual circumstances, of course.)
Can you accept the general principle that there were early innovators who were the first to use tools, that that innovation was an important step in the progress of humanity and that as such the innovators themselves were geniuses doing extraordinary things?

Can you imagine that for some of use writing and reading a sentence phrased in that nit-picky fashion is less fun and more cumbersome than LS's original allegory of the sharp rock and the bone marrow?
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by Lost Soul » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:35 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:30 pm
Both male and female chimps hunt.
Males do more hunting, but females do more hunting with tools.

That may be, LS, but (a) we don't know, and (b) you are probably right that among the earliest uses of tools was breaking open scavenged bones, for which as I nitpickingly said, sharpness is not at all necessary.
The exception proves the rule.

Or: One isolated group at the other extreme of their range from where humans come from does not invalidate my "male chimps hunt" statement.

BTW, we are closer to bonobos than chimps anyway.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by Scrubb » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:12 pm

Seems to me that sharpening rocks was equally likely to have been invented by someone trying to skin an animal as someone trying to kill one. And its as likely to have been a woman as a man in that scenario.

LS has shown many times that he has unshiftable ideas about differences between males and females that are not what one would call scientific, or evidence-based. He's also the guy who has stated, and stood by, the idea that society started going downhill because women got the vote.

So I take pretty much everything he has declared as "fact" in this thread with a flat of salt.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by VinnyD » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:17 pm

LS has shown many times that he has unshiftable ideas about almost everything that are not what one would call scientific, or evidence-based.
Fixed.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by sieve » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:39 pm

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by Usher73 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:31 pm

All of life's questions are answered in the movies.

Steve Martin said it, I think, in a movie.


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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by erkat » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:35 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:27 pm

erkat wrote:as well as the teachers picking out the bored boys who misbehave and then get profiling more readily.
I don't know what that means.
Sorry, poorly expressed. A massive generalisation coming up but often the way boredom is displayed in male and female students is different, with the boys showing more behaviour that is identified by the class teachers as causing problems. This is flagged and can lead to further interventions that eventually lead to profiling from an educational psychologist. More girls fly under the radar in the classroom and so their giftedness is missed.

Can't give you data or papers on this, have sat through quite a few talks by educational psychologists on it.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by VinnyD » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:56 pm

Thanks.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by Lost Soul » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:32 am

Scrubb wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:12 pm
Seems to me that sharpening rocks was equally likely to have been invented by someone trying to skin an animal as someone trying to kill one. And its as likely to have been a woman as a man in that scenario.
Wearing fur coats in equatorial Africa is still not a thing, 4,000,000 years after the era I'm discussing, where the predators and the vultures skinned the dead ungulate. But yes, a few million years later, and after the hand-axe era, and into the knife-on-a-stick and hunting large game era, women did skin the beasts for clothes. It probably first happened by Homo Erectus 1,800,000 years ago in Georgia, which gets nippy in winter.
LS has shown many times that he has unshiftable ideas about differences between males and females that are not what one would call scientific, or evidence-based. He's also the guy who has stated, and stood by, the idea that society started going downhill because women got the vote.
Oarsome. Female voters are largely to the economic left of male voters. So their votes moved every economy they voted in to the left. Which means they made everybody (including themselves) poorer. You may think being poorer is a virtue, but I think it is idiotic.
So I take pretty much everything he has declared as "fact" in this thread with a flat of salt.
You're right. Women hunted and gathered. The men just sat under a tree looking for mushrooms to eat and frogs to lick. Who needs anthropology with wisdom like this?

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by twodogs » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:15 am

Not sure about average women but attractive women are often very intelligent. Last fall I spent a couple of weeks dining with two mature fashion models and was amazed at the quality and diversity of their conversation.

It was a welcome respite from some of the mindless drivel on this forum.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by Scrubb » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:48 am

Lost Soul wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:32 am
Wearing fur coats in equatorial Africa is still not a thing, 4,000,000 years after the era I'm discussing, where the predators and the vultures skinned the dead ungulate. But yes, a few million years later, and after the hand-axe era, and into the knife-on-a-stick and hunting large game era, women did skin the beasts for clothes. It probably first happened by Homo Erectus 1,800,000 years ago in Georgia, which gets nippy in winter.

Oarsome. Female voters are largely to the economic left of male voters. So their votes moved every economy they voted in to the left. Which means they made everybody (including themselves) poorer. You may think being poorer is a virtue, but I think it is idiotic.

You're right. Women hunted and gathered. The men just sat under a tree looking for mushrooms to eat and frogs to lick. Who needs anthropology with wisdom like this?

I am woman hear me roar, in numbers too big to ignore...
LS has shown many times that he has unshiftable ideas about differences between males and females that are not what one would call scientific, or evidence-based. He's also the guy who has stated, and stood by, the idea that society started going downhill because women got the vote.

So I take pretty much everything he has declared as "fact" in this thread with a flat of salt.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by Lost Soul » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:53 am

Yes. Pregnant women roamed east Africa bringing home the bacon for the men. As it should be.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by Lost Soul » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:02 pm

Lost Soul wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:17 pm
shilgia wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:51 pm
's OK. We can do with less knowledge because we have the brainpower to figure stuff out from scratch when we need to. If you don't have that, you need to retain the individual facts. Sorry, boys.
Meh. I'd buy that you're much better at multitasking than the limited male brain.

But let's credit the real geniuses of the past who made our lives livable:
1) The MAN who created the first sharp rock, which allowed us to access some protein in the bones of dead ungulates. This was over 3,000,000 years ago. And it was vital to the quadruple expansion of our brains from the chimp normal. Please tell a vegan.

2) The MAN who created the first knife on a stick, which allowed us to access the world beyond the trees, and even hunt large ungulates.

3) The MAN who, while busily trying to make a knife, accidentally started a fire. This was about 1,900,000 years ago, judging by the people found dead in Georgia.

And then the women started gossiping to each other. Bravo. And thanks for the lingo, which was vital as well.
This received wisdom from a few days ago has now been superseded with new finds from China. Sharp rocks on a stick there were 250,000 years older than the ones found in Georgia. And yes, they probably wore fur coats at least part of the year in north central China and knew how to make fire.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/ ... 0dOYKy0WM8
Stone tools recovered from an excavation in China suggest that our evolutionary forerunners trekked out of Africa earlier than we had thought.

Until now, the oldest evidence of human-like creatures outside Africa came from 1.8-million-year-old artifacts and skulls found in the Georgian town of Dmanisi. The new find pushes that back by at least 250,000 years. There have been other claims of even older fossil discoveries, the study authors said, but those remain unproven.

“There may be older evidence in places like India and Pakistan, but so far … the evidence is not strong enough to convince most of the research community,” said study co-author Robin Dennell of Exeter University in England. “With this type of claim, for an early human presence in a region, the evidence has to be absolutely water-tight and bomb-proof.”

“It’s absolutely a new story,” said archaeologist Michael Petraglia of the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Jena, Germany, who did not participate in the study. “It means that early humans were getting out of Africa way earlier than we ever realized.”

That exit came long before our own species, Homo sapiens, even appeared. The researchers believe the tools were made by another member of the Homo evolutionary group. “Our discovery means that it is necessary now to reconsider the timing of when early humans left Africa,” Dennell said.

Hominins — humans and their extinct predecessors and relatives — are believed to have emerged in Africa more than 6 million years ago. They are thought to have left the continent in several migration waves starting about 2 million years ago.

The first migrants were likely members of the species Homo erectus (“upright man”) or Homo ergaster (“working man”) — extinct predecessors of Homo sapiens (“wise man”), which first emerged about 300,000 years ago in Africa.

The oldest known African fossil attributed to a member of the Homo family is a 2.8-million-year-old jawbone from Ethiopia.

The items found in China include several chipped rocks, fragments and hammer stones. The 96 artifacts — mainly flakes made with rudimentary hammers, and likely used for cutting meat and other food — were dug up from 17 layers of sediment in an area known as the Loess Plateau, north of the Qinling Mountains, which divide the north and south of China.

The youngest layer where tools were found was 1.26 million years old, and the oldest 2.12 million years, according to the study published in Wednesday’s journal Nature. The layers were used to date the tools, which are of a type known to have been manufactured by Homo species in Africa since at least 3.3 million years ago.

So far, no hominin bones have been found.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by dBrother » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:42 pm

twodogs wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:15 am
Not sure about average women but attractive women are often very intelligent. Last fall I spent a couple of weeks dining with two mature fashion models and was amazed at the quality and diversity of their conversation.

It was a welcome respite from some of the mindless drivel on this forum.
true, it seems many fugly women often missed out in the brains department too, what can you expect when trailer trash get together..

but then rich, intelligent, good looking people do seem to seek out and breed with each other, making more rich, intelligent, good looking people.
.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by twodogs » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:04 pm

dBrother wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:42 pm
but then rich, intelligent, good looking people do seem to seek out and breed with each other, making more rich, intelligent, good looking people.
Truth.

Dumb ugly people tend to be increasing in the western world and especially in the USA. I blame the safeguards. If we didn't have seat belts, air bags, safety glass, guard rails, warning labels etc the dumb ugly people would die off as nature intended.
More irrational spitefulness coming from twodogs...

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by eric84 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:12 pm

twodogs wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:04 pm
dBrother wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:42 pm
but then rich, intelligent, good looking people do seem to seek out and breed with each other, making more rich, intelligent, good looking people.
Truth.

Dumb ugly people tend to be increasing in the western world and especially in the USA. I blame the safeguards. If we didn't have seat belts, air bags, safety glass, guard rails, warning labels etc the dumb ugly people would die off as nature intended.
You should be more grateful about that development
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by simon_in_exile » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:11 pm

Just stumbled upon this thread. I’m not sure where to start...
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by simon_in_exile » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:14 pm

...but the most recent posts suggesting beautiful women are smarter are brilliant! Not a correlation I observed when studying at a not-shite university, although it could be argued that sticking around for a geology PhD instead of raking in the cash in some London finance firm isn’t a mark of intelligence.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by jessica_fletcher » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:24 pm

Simon loves rocks
VinnyD wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 6:13 pm
Oops.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by simon_in_exile » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:38 pm

jessica_fletcher wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:24 pm
Simon loves rocks
Is true.

I also love super-smart witty women.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by section8 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:38 pm

They are his friends.
This is the only musical: the mouth. And hopefully the brain attached to the mouth. Right? The brain, more important than the mouth, is the brain. The brain is much more important.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by jessica_fletcher » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:39 pm

They talk to him
VinnyD wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 6:13 pm
Oops.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by simon_in_exile » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:40 pm

I am denying nothing.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by jessica_fletcher » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:40 pm

simon_in_exile wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:38 pm
jessica_fletcher wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:24 pm
Simon loves rocks
Is true.

I also love super-smart witty women.
Well, ahem, *swishes hair*. Wanna talk politics whilst I run through my stand up comedy routine?
VinnyD wrote:
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Oops.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by DCComic » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:41 pm

Beauty has less need of smart to get by.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by simon_in_exile » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:43 pm

I thought you’d never ask, Jess.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by twodogs » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:47 pm

DCComic wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:41 pm
Beauty has less need of smart to get by.
That is the general consensus among the dumb and ugly but if you are able to spend any length of time with beautiful people you know better. One of the tenets of beautiful people is to be demure among he masses which greatly reduces the need to engage in conversation with the dumb and ugly.

I am sure the other beautiful people on this thread will back me up on this.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by jessica_fletcher » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:54 pm

I don't understand what you wrote.

*flutters lashes*
VinnyD wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 6:13 pm
Oops.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by DCComic » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:55 pm

twodogs wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:47 pm
DCComic wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:41 pm
Beauty has less need of smart to get by.
That is the general consensus among the dumb and ugly

Possibly, but it remains a fact.
Think it through.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by Lost Soul » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:56 pm

You are funny Jessica.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by leela » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:59 pm

Lost Soul wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:28 pm
Making sharp rocks out of round rocks was invented by a male man.
How do you know?
Pass the wine...

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by simon_in_exile » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:03 pm

Just sayin’...

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne ... 180955004/
Fongoli chimpanzees first made headlines in 2007, when researchers observed the apes using tools hunt vertebrate prey—making them the first known animal, other than humans, to do so. In the years since, the scientists have continued to study this special community of primates found in southeastern Senegal. In a paper published today in the Royal Society Open Science, the researchers now report another noteworthy observation: The females of the group are the ones most likely to make and utilize the chimps’ hunting spears.

The researchers discovered that female Fongolis accounted for more than 60 percent of all spear-use. What’s more, lead author Jill Pruetz speculates that it was the female chimps that first invented the spear. “In a number of primate species, females are the innovators and more frequent tool users,” Pruetz tells Discovery News.


The ape ladies’ crafty ways aren’t that surprising: With less brawn – and often burdened by infants riding on their backs or bellies – the females would have to use their brains in order to catch enough food to keep up.

“The tools (spears) are made from living tree branches that are detected and then modified by removing all side branches and leaves, as well as the flimsy terminal end of the branch,” Pruetz explains. “Some individuals further trim the tip of the tool with their teeth.” The apes then use the tools to stab their favored prey, a sleeping bushbaby, injuring their victim enough to then bite and kill it relatively easily. Over the course of the study, the researches recorded 308 spear-hunting events.

The scientists believe the Fongoli chimpanzees’ hunting technique “could have originated with a common ancestor of humans and chimps, suggesting that the earliest humans hunted in a similar manner,” Jennifer Viegas writes in Discovery News.

But the study isn’t all about girl power. While male chimps are more likely to catch their prey with brute force, they still account for 70 percent of total captures. And the Fongoli guys are nicer than most about it, too: while in most chimp troops larger males often steal from their subordinates, “dominant males at Fongoli support females and younger males by allowing them to keep their own kills,” ABC Australia reports.

Maybe this behavior provides clues as to the origin of courtesy. Or, maybe, it just shows that these male chimps are smart enough to know that their female counterparts have the wits and tools to defend themselves against any monkey business.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by Lost Soul » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:13 pm

leela wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:59 pm
Lost Soul wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:28 pm
Making sharp rocks out of round rocks was invented by a male man.
How do you know?
Because men were the hunters in every tribe of humans known via the historical record, or even the ethnographic record of the last century.

They had about 2,000,000 years of experimenting with rocks in the smashing of ungulate bones before they got creative, and then another 3,000,000 years to perfect flint knapping. It was a slow process.

At the end of it, we could make stone in the shape of bronze spears when we had no bronze. From Denmark, about 1200 BC.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by dBrother » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:04 pm

In the stone age aboriginal society in the western desert it was the womenfolk who would go out hunting cats and lizards, they know this because anthropologists went out as asked them. ( The Stone age lasted until the 70's in places)
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by strife » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:08 pm

simon_in_exile wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:03 pm
Just sayin’...

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne ... 180955004/
Fongoli chimpanzees first made headlines in 2007, when researchers observed the apes using tools hunt vertebrate prey—making them the first known animal, other than humans, to do so. In the years since, the scientists have continued to study this special community of primates found in southeastern Senegal. In a paper published today in the Royal Society Open Science, the researchers now report another noteworthy observation: The females of the group are the ones most likely to make and utilize the chimps’ hunting spears.

The researchers discovered that female Fongolis accounted for more than 60 percent of all spear-use. What’s more, lead author Jill Pruetz speculates that it was the female chimps that first invented the spear. “In a number of primate species, females are the innovators and more frequent tool users,” Pruetz tells Discovery News.


The ape ladies’ crafty ways aren’t that surprising: With less brawn – and often burdened by infants riding on their backs or bellies – the females would have to use their brains in order to catch enough food to keep up.

“The tools (spears) are made from living tree branches that are detected and then modified by removing all side branches and leaves, as well as the flimsy terminal end of the branch,” Pruetz explains. “Some individuals further trim the tip of the tool with their teeth.” The apes then use the tools to stab their favored prey, a sleeping bushbaby, injuring their victim enough to then bite and kill it relatively easily. Over the course of the study, the researches recorded 308 spear-hunting events.

The scientists believe the Fongoli chimpanzees’ hunting technique “could have originated with a common ancestor of humans and chimps, suggesting that the earliest humans hunted in a similar manner,” Jennifer Viegas writes in Discovery News.

But the study isn’t all about girl power. While male chimps are more likely to catch their prey with brute force, they still account for 70 percent of total captures. And the Fongoli guys are nicer than most about it, too: while in most chimp troops larger males often steal from their subordinates, “dominant males at Fongoli support females and younger males by allowing them to keep their own kills,” ABC Australia reports.

Maybe this behavior provides clues as to the origin of courtesy. Or, maybe, it just shows that these male chimps are smart enough to know that their female counterparts have the wits and tools to defend themselves against any monkey business.
Crows and magpies have been observed using tools too. Magpies have also passed the mirror test.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:38 pm

leela wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:59 pm
Lost Soul wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:28 pm
Making sharp rocks out of round rocks was invented by a male man.
How do you know?
Like Jim-2012, LS don' need no stinkin' evidence. He knows what he knows, and there's an end on it.

But he will probably tell you that he explained it all in a thread three or four years ago which you can find if you look for it.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by Lost Soul » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:04 am

Wiki-limited lawyers really ought to read the thread before they open their ignorant yaps. If they did, they would find that it was explained on this very page, unless wiki begs to differ.
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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by simon_in_exile » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:43 am

Lost Soul wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:04 am
Wiki-limited lawyers really ought to read the thread before they open their ignorant yaps. If they did, they would find that it was explained on this very page, unless wiki begs to differ.
Did you read the whole thread including the article indicating that females probably invented tool use?
La ruta nos aportó otro paso natural.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by simon_in_exile » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:48 am

strife wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:08 pm
simon_in_exile wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:03 pm
Just sayin’...

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne ... 180955004/
Crows and magpies have been observed using tools too. Magpies have also passed the mirror test.
They have (I’m a nature documentary addict too), but I didn’t post the article to show other animals invent and use tools. I posted it because it explains that (and why) female primates have been observed to be preferentially making and using tools.
La ruta nos aportó otro paso natural.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by Lost Soul » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:55 am

A tool is not a stone tool, Simon.

A properly shaped stone, stuck on a stick, was the key for our ancestors to quit the trees and strike out across the globe.

This isn't a difficult, or even a controversial, concept.

And it took several geniuses to figure the several stages of stone tools out: from first using rocks to crush bones; to shaping the rocks into hand axes; to shaping them into knives; and then attaching them to sticks.
IMPRISON BUSH!

INDICT HILLARY!

"Lost Soul is largely correct"- VinnyD

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by VinnyD » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:50 am

Simon, I linked to that article earlier in the thread. LS was unconvinced, because he don' need no stinikin' evidence.

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Re: Women and Knowledge

Post by Lost Soul » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:29 pm

I already covered it.

Pregnant women, complete with a train of yuts behind them, crossed the Serengeti to feed the men?

Fascinating.

You lawyers should tell the Bushmen of the Kalahari how to hunt. Specifically, demand that the women hunt there. That'll work.
IMPRISON BUSH!

INDICT HILLARY!

"Lost Soul is largely correct"- VinnyD

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