The English and Religion/The afterlife

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by VinnyD » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:43 pm

Wikipedia says six: Islam, Protestantism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism.

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by temporaryhandle2 » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:43 pm

Oh my stars!

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by VinnyD » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:47 pm

On the other hand, the US State Department says "The Ministry of Religious Affairs estimates that 19 million Protestants (referred to locally as Christians) and eight million Catholics live in the country."

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by temporaryhandle2 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:04 am

:lol: wanker

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by DianaHaddad » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:13 am

When I was growing up Catholic in the US, we considered ourselves Christians, and that was in our CCD textbooks, etc. It was always other Christians who would exclude us from that designation.

I attend an ecumenical service every year on 9/11, held on the site of the ferry dock in my neighborhood where a multitude of people were evacuated to. There's always a few speakers who welcome the Jewish people, the Muslims, the Hindus, the Christians and the Catholics.
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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by Chip_Oatley » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:15 am

"It was always other Christians who would exclude us from that designation."

Never mainstream Protestants like mine and others of that ilk, ONLY the most right-wing born-agains.

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by DianaHaddad » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:21 am

That's not my experience, but that's ok. I'm not trying to make a big point or anything, just commenting further on what Matt and Glimpet said.
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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by Scrubb » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:37 am

VinnyD wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:43 pm
Wikipedia says six: Islam, Protestantism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism.
Could be. I was just going off what the teachers in my language school told me and some travel guide - nothing authoritative. But I certainly didn't hear about Confucianism, while I did see and hear lots about the other 5.
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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by temporaryhandle2 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:03 am

Well there are a lot of ethnic Chinese in Indonesia. It's just that in the 60s they were forced to change their names and hide their origins.

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by equus » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:45 am

Catholicism, Anglicanism, Presbyterianism etc, are more usefully thought of as denominations of the Christian religion. In this country, I think it is useful to know the percentage of people of denomination in part because of the public funding that goes towards them.
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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by equus » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:52 am

It is in the nature, of course, of religions, to think of adherents of the "wrong" denomination as not being members of the same religion at all. It's not that long ago that Christians were murdering each other for it; wars were fought over what to an atheist appear like tiny details of aspects of faith. In the muslim "religion", the sunnis and shiites are still at it today.

The fact that some prods don't think micks are christians and vice versa shouldn't really draw the rest of us into their silly but longstanding feuds.
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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by equus » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:13 am

simon_in_exile wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:01 am

The hostility that’s detected might also be because of a shared language.
That makes sense. Claims that [country X] is the most/least/best/worst at [subject Y] usually boil down to familiarity with particular countries and the extent to which comparisons can be validly made.
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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by rezuar » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:32 am

matt_melb wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:56 am
As per Equus’ chart - the Czechs are standout atheists.
And proud of it.
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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by veronica_inheels » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:24 am

Ya. I was always jealous of that. And of svejk
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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by simon_in_exile » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:48 am

rezuar wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:32 am
matt_melb wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:56 am
As per Equus’ chart - the Czechs are standout atheists.
And proud of it.
I bet Jan Hus and the defenestrators didn’t foresee that outcome!
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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by Annotated » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 am

BulletPark wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:50 am
Is there any modern nation more hostile to religion of any kind whatsoever? I wonder why
The English have always thought they were smarter than everyone. Eventually, they came to realize they were even smarter than God.

As it has always worked out for them in the past, I suppose it will do so in the future as well.
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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by Lost Soul » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:24 am

simon_in_exile wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:48 am
rezuar wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:32 am
matt_melb wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:56 am
As per Equus’ chart - the Czechs are standout atheists.
And proud of it.
I bet Jan Hus and the defenestrators didn’t foresee that outcome!
He was long before the window tossers.

But when the worst religious war in history starts, and ends, in your tiny country, it is prudent to take note.

The Czechs solved the 30 Years War by nominally adopting the religion of their Hapsburg overlords. Peace.

Communism probably didn't help piety either.
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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:29 am

GLimpet wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:40 am
BulletPark wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:26 am
The Scottish seem less likely to jump down your throat about it either way.
Naive.
Yup, I am still scratching my head over that post.

Wrong, on so many levels.

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:38 am

Flobster! wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:15 am
If England is a nation
Listen. Don't start that bollocks again.

Or you know where its going to go...

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by korgy » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:58 am

Scrubb wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:37 am
VinnyD wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:43 pm
Wikipedia says six: Islam, Protestantism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism.
Could be. I was just going off what the teachers in my language school told me and some travel guide - nothing authoritative. But I certainly didn't hear about Confucianism, while I did see and hear lots about the other 5.
there has been a lot of press recently about the ongoing intolerance of indigenous religions in Indonesia that predate the six recognized religions
JAKARTA, Indonesia — Growing up on the Indonesian island of Java in the 1970s, Dewi Kanti practiced an ancient form of indigenous traditional beliefs whose origins predate the arrivals of Christianity, Buddhism and Islam here by centuries.

Ironically, Ms. Dewi notes bitterly, those traditional beliefs make her a religious outcast in her own country today, where the Constitution guarantees freedom of religion but the government recognizes only six: Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Protestantism, Catholicism and Confucianism.

“The point here is how there is no justice,” she said. “Why can these big global religions spread and be recognized, but the original religion of Indonesia cannot?”

It is a question she and others are still waiting to see answered, despite a landmark ruling in November by the Constitutional Court that affirmed the rights of followers of traditional beliefs outside of the six recognized religions.

The ruling came amid signs of growing intolerance of religious minorities in Indonesia, which is the world’s most populous Muslim-majority nation, and objections from some Islamic groups.

Five months later, the Indonesian government has yet to implement the Constitutional Court ruling, although officials say they are working on it.

In a country where religion plays a large part in public life, followers of traditional beliefs, known generally as aliran kepercayaan, hope the ruling will finally end decades of unofficial discrimination that makes it difficult for them to get permits to open gathering places, obtain marriage licenses and get access to public services like health care and education. It also complicates efforts by those believers to get military, police or civil service jobs, or even burial plots in cemeteries.
. . .

It is estimated that at least 20 million of Indonesia’s 260 million people practice local traditional beliefs, but the numbers could be much higher, according to analysts, as some are also followers of Islam, Christianity and other major religions.(cont)
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/14/worl ... edom-.html
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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by The Mallard Missie » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:28 am

Buddhism is a philosophy, not a religion.
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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by VinnyD » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:57 am

Lost Soul, you are perhaps thinking of the 1618 defenestration of Prague. It was not the first:
The First Defenestration of Prague involved the killing of seven members of the city council by a crowd of Czech Hussites on 30 July 1419.

Jan Želivský, a Hussite priest at the church of the Virgin Mary of the Snows, led his congregation on a procession through the streets of Prague to the New Town Hall (Novoměstská radnice) on Charles Square. The town council members had refused to exchange their Hussite prisoners. While they were marching, a stone was thrown at Želivský from the window of the town hall and allegedly hit him. This enraged the mob and they stormed the town hall. Once inside the hall, the group defenestrated the judge, the burgomaster, and several members of the town council. They were all killed by the fall.

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by jessica_fletcher » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:09 pm

The Mallard Missie wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:28 am
Buddhism is a philosophy, not a religion.
Disagree.

They have God’s like green Tara, odd pujas with throaty ‘singing’ and a hierarchy of religious practitioners. Rinpoche, lama, monks. Nuns etc etc

Like any religion, the Dharma part is good, the rest? Not so much.
VinnyD wrote:
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Oops.

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by Barbarella » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:51 pm

equus wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:52 am
The fact that some prods don't think micks are christians
What do you mean by micks?

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by temporaryhandle2 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:50 pm

Barbarella wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:51 pm
equus wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:52 am
The fact that some prods don't think micks are christians
What do you mean by micks?
As far as I know, Babs, It's an old Australian term for a Catholic. It has its origin in sectarianism and Australian history long ago, when the vast majority of Catholics in Australia were of Irish ancestry.

I doubt most Australians under 50 or so, would know that the word was sectarian in origin, let alone use it as anything other than a shortened form of Micheal these days.

I wasn't allowed to use the word as a child, by the way, even though I was a Protestant. My parents detested sectarianism.

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by Barbarella » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:55 pm


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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by Lost Soul » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:57 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:57 am
Lost Soul, you are perhaps thinking of the 1618 defenestration of Prague. It was not the first:
The First Defenestration of Prague involved the killing of seven members of the city council by a crowd of Czech Hussites on 30 July 1419.

Jan Želivský, a Hussite priest at the church of the Virgin Mary of the Snows, led his congregation on a procession through the streets of Prague to the New Town Hall (Novoměstská radnice) on Charles Square. The town council members had refused to exchange their Hussite prisoners. While they were marching, a stone was thrown at Želivský from the window of the town hall and allegedly hit him. This enraged the mob and they stormed the town hall. Once inside the hall, the group defenestrated the judge, the burgomaster, and several members of the town council. They were all killed by the fall.
The first didn't start a war that killed half of Germany, and millions of the rest of Yurp.

Focus Vinny, if you can.
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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by temporaryhandle2 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:00 pm

Barbarella wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:55 pm
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mick

It is derogatory.
Yes, I know. That's why I wasn't allowed to use it and would never do so now. I don't know why equus did. Perhaps he doesn't know its origins.
Last edited by temporaryhandle2 on Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:02 pm

Perhaps the Crim was having a laugh

I am a 'Mc'

Can you guess which one?

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by temporaryhandle2 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:06 pm

I don't actually care.

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:10 pm

Neither do i

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by temporaryhandle2 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:13 pm

OK. Good night, then.

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by Barbarella » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:14 pm

If mic derives from Mc then why isnt it associated with the Scottish?

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:17 pm

Because 'Sweaty Sock' was already a far superior term of abuse, maybe

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:23 pm

Aren't the Irish ones more 'Mc' and Scottish ones 'Mac' in general?

Although, the Gaelic spelling if mine starts "Mac An..."


Anyhoo....its origins are in question. And Cromwell was most definitely a wanker.

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by The Mallard Missie » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:48 pm

jessica_fletcher wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:09 pm
The Mallard Missie wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:28 am
Buddhism is a philosophy, not a religion.
Disagree.

They have God’s like green Tara, odd pujas with throaty ‘singing’ and a hierarchy of religious practitioners. Rinpoche, lama, monks. Nuns etc etc

Like any religion, the Dharma part is good, the rest? Not so much.
Not in Theravada Buddhism, they don't - I haven't heard of the first couple you mentioned, but the remainder are not gods. In its purest form, there is no god nor creator and is therefore not a religion, whatever the superstitious or naive may choose to worship, eg the Nats.
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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by VinnyD » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:14 pm

LS, what Simon said was this:
I bet Jan Hus and the defenestrators didn’t foresee that outcome!
He was clearly thinking of the First Defenestration of Prague, as anyone who had heard of the first Defenestration of Prague would have known.

What you said in reply was this:
He was long before the window tossers.

But when the worst religious war in history starts, and ends, in your tiny country, it is prudent to take note.

The Czechs solved the 30 Years War by nominally adopting the religion of their Hapsburg overlords. Peace.
You clearly thought he was thinking of the Second Defestration.

It is really no disgrace not to have heard of the First Defenestration. It is, if you ask me, a little embarrassing to correct someone who refered to it because you have only heard of the other one. And it is shameful not to admit you were wrong in correcting someone when you clearly were.

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by equus » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:29 pm

temporaryhandle2 wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:00 pm
Barbarella wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:55 pm
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mick

It is derogatory.
Yes, I know. That's why I wasn't allowed to use it and would never do so now. I don't know why equus did. Perhaps he doesn't know its origins.
Of course I know it's origins. Prod is hardly a term of affection either. I think the context of the rest of my post should make pretty clear my views on sectarianism.
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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by equus » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:02 pm

Barbarella wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:55 pm
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mick

It is derogatory.

You'll find a comprehensive list of words people use to describe people wearing the wrong team shirt here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_slurs
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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:05 pm

That link is a load of shite

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by equus » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:07 pm

Please do feel free to post a better one.
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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by Barbarella » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:08 pm

equus wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:29 pm
temporaryhandle2 wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:00 pm
Barbarella wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:55 pm
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mick

It is derogatory.
Yes, I know. That's why I wasn't allowed to use it and would never do so now. I don't know why equus did. Perhaps he doesn't know its origins.
Of course I know it's origins. Prod is hardly a term of affection either. I think the context of the rest of my post should make pretty clear my views on sectarianism.
Prod is short for protestant, thats a slur now? Dont think so....

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by VinnyD » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:46 pm

In the US of my youth, "mick" meant Irish or Irisih-American. An Italian, Polish, or Puerto Rican Catholic would never have been described as a mick (wop, polack, and spick respectively, among other terms). I don't think there was a derogatory term for Catholic as such.

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by equus » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:40 pm

Barbarella wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:08 pm
equus wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:29 pm
temporaryhandle2 wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:00 pm


Yes, I know. That's why I wasn't allowed to use it and would never do so now. I don't know why equus did. Perhaps he doesn't know its origins.
Of course I know it's origins. Prod is hardly a term of affection either. I think the context of the rest of my post should make pretty clear my views on sectarianism.
Prod is short for protestant, thats a slur now? Dont think so....
It certainly was when my Catholic school mates yelled it. We may possibly be diving too much into the details here. Shall I rephrase my sentence in more generic terms?

"The fact that some members of one religious denomination use slurs to describe members of another religious denomination, and vice versa, and do not regard each other as members of the same overarching religion shouldn't really draw the rest of us into their silly but longstanding feuds."

Vinny, in Australia there was a longstanding anti-Catholicism which was very much focussed on irish catholics. Hence, Mick as a term for Catholic made sense because it was Irish Catholics in particular that were targeted by this sectarianism. It had largely faded by the time I was old enough to really give much of a shit, with the exception of me being told that should somehow feel responsible for the IRA.
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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by Scrubb » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:44 pm

My impression of Buddhism is that at its core, it's a philosophy rather than a religion; but in its practice, it's pure religion. EVeryplace where it has taken hold, they've added the trappings of religion. For example, while there's no "creator" or all powerful god, the adherents pray to spirits who provide guidance and there's a church heirarchy.
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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by jessica_fletcher » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:47 pm

Yeah, wot she said.


(Which is what I said but better)
VinnyD wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 6:13 pm
Oops.

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by equus » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:54 pm

Scrubb wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:44 pm
My impression of Buddhism is that at its core, it's a philosophy rather than a religion; but in its practice, it's pure religion. EVeryplace where it has taken hold, they've added the trappings of religion. For example, while there's no "creator" or all powerful god, the adherents pray to spirits who provide guidance and there's a church heirarchy.
And of course there's reincarnation. You have holy writ that specifies supernatural beliefs, that's a religion.
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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:00 pm

The Sikhs seem pretty could.

Ferocious fighters, without being head bangers.

Kind, spiritual, like a drink.

I'm thinking of becoming one.

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by jessica_fletcher » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:13 pm

They wear special pants though
VinnyD wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 6:13 pm
Oops.

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Re: The English and Religion/The afterlife

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:35 pm

jessica_fletcher wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:13 pm
They wear special pants though
Either way so will I in a few years

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