Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Berning Trumpeters vs The Establishment

Moderator: Moderator

User avatar
eric84
Moderator
Posts: 53688
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:31 pm

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by eric84 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:34 am

Yup, they're constantly under attack, particularly so when stew millionaires demand tax cuts.
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair.

User avatar
muthafunky
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 22376
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:50 am

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by muthafunky » Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:36 am

It's strange, the things you argue for.

User avatar
eric84
Moderator
Posts: 53688
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:31 pm

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by eric84 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:53 am

It's strange that I would argue for universal health care? Every western country manages to have it and miraculously makes it sustainable. Apparently not possible for you.
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair.

Lost Soul
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 54941
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 2:02 am

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by Lost Soul » Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:55 am

eric84 wrote:It's strange that I would argue for universal health care? Every western country manages to have it and miraculously makes it sustainable. Apparently not possible for you.

Correct. We have a government of, by and for the lawyers.
IMPRISON BUSH!

INDICT HILLARY!

"Lost Soul is largely correct"- VinnyD

User avatar
eric84
Moderator
Posts: 53688
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:31 pm

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by eric84 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:58 am

Not surprisingly, that makes no sense.
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair.

Lost Soul
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 54941
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 2:02 am

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by Lost Soul » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:00 am

Oh but it does.
IMPRISON BUSH!

INDICT HILLARY!

"Lost Soul is largely correct"- VinnyD

User avatar
eric84
Moderator
Posts: 53688
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:31 pm

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by eric84 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:06 am

You'd have to actually provide detail beyond a moronic bumpersticker before it comes a possible point of debate. You're not capable of doing that.
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair.

Lost Soul
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 54941
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 2:02 am

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by Lost Soul » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:14 am

I've given it many times, vis a vis our healthcare.

You're just incapable of listening.
IMPRISON BUSH!

INDICT HILLARY!

"Lost Soul is largely correct"- VinnyD

User avatar
eric84
Moderator
Posts: 53688
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:31 pm

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by eric84 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:25 am

The AMA has been a far more influential foe to health care reform.
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair.

User avatar
andybox
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 27398
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:09 am

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by andybox » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:27 am

The US health system seems very complicated and costly.
Hands have been clenched in a fist too long

User avatar
muthafunky
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 22376
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:50 am

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by muthafunky » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:30 am

eric84 wrote:It's strange that I would argue for universal health care? Every western country manages to have it and miraculously makes it sustainable. Apparently not possible for you.


It's strange you would argue that you shouldn't have social programs for the poor.

User avatar
eric84
Moderator
Posts: 53688
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:31 pm

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by eric84 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:50 am

No, you shouldn't change a universal health car program to one just for the poor. Lousy idea. ACA showed how many people just over the poverty line were not getting adequate health care.

But, yeah, the stew millionaire tax cut is super important.
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair.

User avatar
muthafunky
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 22376
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:50 am

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by muthafunky » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:56 am

Eric hates free school lunches for poor kids.

User avatar
andybox
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 27398
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:09 am

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by andybox » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:11 am

ACA showed how many people just over the poverty line were not getting adequate health care.

Why aren't they getting adequate health care in the world's greatest economy?
Hands have been clenched in a fist too long

User avatar
eric84
Moderator
Posts: 53688
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:31 pm

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by eric84 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:19 am

Because their employer wasn't providing an insurance scheme.
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair.

User avatar
eric84
Moderator
Posts: 53688
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:31 pm

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by eric84 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:21 am

muthafunky wrote:Eric hates free school lunches for poor kids.


Try to stay on the issue of health care. Are you can tell us how medicare is apparently unsustainable? Give it a shot
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair.

User avatar
andybox
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 27398
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:09 am

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by andybox » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:23 am

eric84 wrote:Because their employer wasn't providing an insurance scheme.

Let the government provide a universal health care system. I'm sure all level headed USAnians would agree that this successful type of system is obviously the best system for their country.
Hands have been clenched in a fist too long

User avatar
eric84
Moderator
Posts: 53688
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:31 pm

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by eric84 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:29 am

They do, but powerful lobbying by big pharma and docs, among others, mean that even ACA, which was pretty modest reform, took monumental efforts. Thankfully, for stew millionaires like mutha, the reform will likely be overturned even though it was largely successful.
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair.

User avatar
muthafunky
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 22376
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:50 am

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by muthafunky » Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:13 pm

eric84 wrote:
muthafunky wrote:Eric hates free school lunches for poor kids.


Try to stay on the issue of health care. Are you can tell us how medicare is apparently unsustainable? Give it a shot


I already have. Costs have grown and will continue to grow faster than GDP growth so it's just simple math. Change nothing and the program is unsustainable. Surprised that's controversial to say.

Why do you hate free school lunches for poor kids?

User avatar
eric84
Moderator
Posts: 53688
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:31 pm

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by eric84 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:21 pm

So, your proposal to privatize health care further which will make health care cost growth even more unsustainable in a country that has the highest health care costs in the world. Fantastic idea, tea partier.
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair.

User avatar
muthafunky
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 22376
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:50 am

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by muthafunky » Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:23 pm

Where did I propose that? I love how determined you are to argue with me about things I never said.

User avatar
eric84
Moderator
Posts: 53688
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:31 pm

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by eric84 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:26 pm

Did you not want to means test medicare? If so, that is the logical result of your proposal.
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair.

User avatar
muthafunky
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 22376
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:50 am

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by muthafunky » Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:31 pm

No, I haven't suggested means testing Medicare. I also haven't suggested Medicare or Medicaid should be privatized.

Are you ever going to tell us why you hate free school lunches for poor kids?

User avatar
eric84
Moderator
Posts: 53688
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:31 pm

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by eric84 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:36 pm

muthafunky wrote:
avalon_ wrote:But if they cut medicare, what will people do? Won't they just die? Or go to the ER and not pay their bills?

One of my parents two years ago was a lobbyist for medicare.


I don't think I've seen medicare reform proposals where people would just not have coverage and die because of it. Most of the cutting would assume there is more spending by citizens to help cover the bills, the theory being that the well off do not necessarily need medicare to pick up the full tab anyway and programs like medicaid are there to pay for people who can't afford health care that medicare doesn't cover.


So, what you meant to say is that you oppose this idea?
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair.

User avatar
ExPat From Hell
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 4705
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:37 am

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by ExPat From Hell » Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:49 pm

Why do you hate free school lunches for poor kids.

What kind of sick fuck are you?
Not gay as in happy. Queer as in Fuck You.

User avatar
muthafunky
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 22376
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:50 am

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by muthafunky » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:51 pm

eric84 wrote:
muthafunky wrote:
avalon_ wrote:But if they cut medicare, what will people do? Won't they just die? Or go to the ER and not pay their bills?

One of my parents two years ago was a lobbyist for medicare.


I don't think I've seen medicare reform proposals where people would just not have coverage and die because of it. Most of the cutting would assume there is more spending by citizens to help cover the bills, the theory being that the well off do not necessarily need medicare to pick up the full tab anyway and programs like medicaid are there to pay for people who can't afford health care that medicare doesn't cover.


So, what you meant to say is that you oppose this idea?


Correct, you will note that nowhere in the post do you see me saying "I think we should do this" or the like. I was explaining where the Republican thinking is going with the program. Looks like you're trying too hard to argue with me.

User avatar
muthafunky
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 22376
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:50 am

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by muthafunky » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:52 pm

ExPat From Hell wrote:Why do you hate free school lunches for poor kids.

What kind of sick fuck are you?


I think this is a valid question that Eric should answer. Why would anyone oppose programs flat out because they are designed to help only the poor?

User avatar
mad hatter
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 23849
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:08 pm

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by mad hatter » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:09 pm

eric wants to cut lunches?
Anyone can go by horse or rail, but the absolute best way to travel is by hat.

aero
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 2390
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 10:32 pm

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by aero » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:19 pm

To be fair to Eric, he isn't opposing programs designed specifically to help the poor. He is saying that those are welfare programs, and as such, they are subject to the whims of whoever is paying the bills. These programs are often cut without much opposition because they do affect the majority of the population, who will not qualify for the programs.

Universal programs like Medicare and Social Security are seen as something everyone has a stake in because everyone pays in and will benefit at some point. If you change this to a needs-based system where everyone pays in but only some people benefit, the general support for the program will be greatly diminished, making it a lot easier to make them into programs designed specifically for the poor; see above.

User avatar
mad hatter
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 23849
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:08 pm

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by mad hatter » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:24 pm

all western democracies that fund social health and welfare systems are struggling with the prospect of massive cost increases as the population mix skews to the old and the cost of programs increases faster than the tax take.
Anyone can go by horse or rail, but the absolute best way to travel is by hat.

User avatar
avalon_
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 25158
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:26 am

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by avalon_ » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:28 pm

I was happy to see that Betsy DeVos was one of the top three people to be opposed. I know it was mentioned that budget cuts and dismantling public education isn't a priority for congress right now, but it's been a priority for DeVos for many years. I still see her as a threat to public education.

User avatar
muthafunky
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 22376
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:50 am

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by muthafunky » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:51 pm

aero wrote:To be fair to Eric, he isn't opposing programs designed specifically to help the poor..


If you read farther up in the thread, you'll see that he said we should get rid of medicaid, food stamps, and free school lunches because they help only the poor and are constantly under attack.

Your post makes a lot more sense of course.

User avatar
muthafunky
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 22376
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:50 am

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by muthafunky » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:52 pm

mad hatter wrote:all western democracies that fund social health and welfare systems are struggling with the prospect of massive cost increases as the population mix skews to the old and the cost of programs increases faster than the tax take.


For the most part, yes. Other countries as well, such as Japan. Everyone is going to have to find solutions to these problems, preferably sooner rather than later.

User avatar
shunter
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 17014
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:56 pm

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by shunter » Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:12 pm

What's the problem with people paying more given they need more care. Is there any inherent reason we can't all pay more when we're younger and work longer? And just spend less on crap that is useless and expensive in our 20-60s?
1988: "We have a climate in Britain in which business wants to succeed and can succeed." Margaret Thatcher, speech to launch the European Single Market

2018: "Fuck business." Boris Johnson

User avatar
mad hatter
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 23849
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:08 pm

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by mad hatter » Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:28 pm

shunter wrote:What's the problem with people paying more given they need more care. Is there any inherent reason we can't all pay more when we're younger and work longer? And just spend less on crap that is useless and expensive in our 20-60s?


besides the massive cost of housingthese days?
Anyone can go by horse or rail, but the absolute best way to travel is by hat.

Maxwell
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 1268
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:46 am

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by Maxwell » Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:53 pm

shunter wrote:What's the problem with people paying more given they need more care. Is there any inherent reason we can't all pay more when we're younger and work longer? And just spend less on crap that is useless and expensive in our 20-60s?

Why does the Federal Government have to run my health care? I'm perfectly capable of buying my own insurance and finding a doctor.

User avatar
muthafunky
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 22376
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:50 am

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by muthafunky » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:10 pm

shunter wrote:What's the problem with people paying more given they need more care. Is there any inherent reason we can't all pay more when we're younger and work longer? And just spend less on crap that is useless and expensive in our 20-60s?


All of the things you suggest are possibilities.

User avatar
eric84
Moderator
Posts: 53688
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:31 pm

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by eric84 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:24 pm

muthafunky wrote:
aero wrote:To be fair to Eric, he isn't opposing programs designed specifically to help the poor..


If you read farther up in the thread, you'll see that he said we should get rid of medicaid, food stamps, and free school lunches because they help only the poor and are constantly under attack.

Your post makes a lot more sense of course.


AAero is correct in what I was suggesting. I wasn't opposing cuts to those programs at all.
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair.

User avatar
andybox
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 27398
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:09 am

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by andybox » Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:30 pm

Free the school lunches!!!
Hands have been clenched in a fist too long

User avatar
eric84
Moderator
Posts: 53688
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:31 pm

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by eric84 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:34 pm

muthafunky wrote:
ExPat From Hell wrote:Why do you hate free school lunches for poor kids.

What kind of sick fuck are you?


I think this is a valid question that Eric should answer. Why would anyone oppose programs flat out because they are designed to help only the poor?


You're pretty naive if you don't think that happens. Red states do all sorts of crazy stuff to welfare eligibility simply to Fuck with the poor because it plays well with their base and the poor don't have PACS.
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair.

User avatar
muthafunky
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 22376
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:50 am

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by muthafunky » Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:35 pm

So that's why you want to ban free school lunches?

User avatar
eric84
Moderator
Posts: 53688
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:31 pm

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by eric84 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:57 am

This isn't a terribly clever of you. I apologize if I thought you actually had an opinion about medicare that you were prepared to defend.
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair.

User avatar
ExPat From Hell
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 4705
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:37 am

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by ExPat From Hell » Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:11 am

I'm reminded of watching my French friends having "conversations" with my Thai friends, in English...
Not gay as in happy. Queer as in Fuck You.

User avatar
Scrubb
Stew Ingredient
Posts: 23028
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:08 am

Re: Face it - I'll do fine through the Trump Presidency

Post by Scrubb » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:22 am

eric84 wrote:This isn't a terribly clever of you. I apologize if I thought you actually had an opinion about medicare that you were prepared to defend.

You must have missed the post where he said his preference is for a single-payer universal system.
Boinkity_Boink isn't much of an idiot

Post Reply