Obama Could if he wanted

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5waldos
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Obama Could if he wanted

Post by 5waldos » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:04 am

Issue a blanket pardon to all aliens whose only crime was entering illegally or overstaying their visas. Or even those who have committed minor crimes. For that matter he could, if so inclined (which he is not) pardon all of them whatever their crime.

It would be very unusual but he learns quickly- Trump has made it clear that the unusual is the way to go these days.

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Jim-2012
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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by Jim-2012 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:11 am

That would still not give people who came here illegally, citizenship.
The next president could order all who came here without obeying the rules that everybody else has to obey, deported. Trump has said that he would first deport those illegal aliens who have committed crimes while they were here in the US rather than do a mass deportation of all illegal aliens.
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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by Maxwell » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:19 am

Try getting into Mexico illegally and see what happens.

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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by dragon » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:32 am

Um er... Not much.
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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by nycfellow » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:34 am

Yeah. Is the minor flood of Central Americans coming to the US flying up? No. Which means before becoming US illegal immigrants, they are Mexican illegal immigrants.

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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by rider5 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:36 am

Somehow I don't think that would work. They still wouldn't have a work or residency visa. Then what?

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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by 5waldos » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:48 am

rider5 wrote:Somehow I don't think that would work. They still wouldn't have a work or residency visa. Then what?

But it would cut down the number of people who are the first target for being deported- criminals.

And who was suggesting that this pardon would make them citizens? Certainly not me.

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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by rider5 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:53 am

What crimes are you talking about? Pardoning sounds like a bad idea to me and probably to Obama as well.

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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by 5waldos » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:05 am

I'm not suggesting that he should or that he has even considered it. Just musing that he could- which I find amusing.

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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by nycfellow » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:41 am

Isn't the pardon only good for criminal offenses? Since being in the country without permission is an ongoing situation, I don't see any legal structure by which you could pardon it. That said, I'm not a lawyer - I know a good chunk about some particular areas of law, but this isn't one of them. Apart from my own immigration, which was straightforward. Well, apart from the number of different visas I've had in the past. Gotta catch 'em all.

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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by 5waldos » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:43 am

You could be right NYC- just holiday musing. Presidential pardons are not entirely clear.

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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by Annotated » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:48 am

5waldos wrote:But it would cut down the number of people who are the first target for being deported- criminals.


So you want more criminals (without even locking them up)?

You want to keep the people who killed people like the following, leaving children without mothers and fathers, leaving mothers and fathers stricken with unbearable grief upon seeing the death of their children, leaving brothers and sisters and husband and wives struggling to make sense of senseless killings of their loved ones: http://www.ojjpac.org/memorial.asp

You libtard fuckers truly are sick people.
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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by StanDeManII » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:54 am

No he can't.....

Article II, Section 2, Clause 1 of the Constitution is very clear that, “The President…shall have the Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.” In other words, the president can pardon federal criminal offenses, but not civil violations. While Improper Entry by an Alien is a misdemeanor crime, unlawful presence in the United States is a civil violation. Therefore, a presidential pardon would erase the crime of illegally entering the United States but would have no effect on the civil offense of unlawfully remaining.

The presidential power to pardon derives from old English law. It served as a mechanism to restore the rights lost by a felon who, although guilty of a crime, had fallen prey to extenuating circumstances. It was not a tool for the king to willfully evade those laws he disliked. And such an abuse would likely have led to his overthrow.
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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by coffeeguy » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:47 pm

Righty hasn't figured out that you cant stop the ingenuity of humanity determined to go somewhere.

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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by Moethebartender » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:11 pm

5waldos wrote:I'm not suggesting that he should or that he has even considered it. Just musing that he could- which I find amusing.


What other 'amusing' things are you fantasizing about Obama doing before he leaves office?
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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by VinnyD » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:37 pm

Waldos, overstaying a visa is not a crime, so there is nothing to pardon.

Crossing the border illegally is a crime, so he could pardon people for that. But hardly anyone is ever prosecuted for that; they are taken into custody and deported. And in any case I do not think he could pardon everyone in a given class without naming each of them.

What he can do is suspend deportations, as he has done for people who came here as children and have stayed out of trouble, but that is a policy that can be reversed.

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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by VinnyD » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:42 pm

On a related subject, Newt Gingrich had an ingenious solution to the probability that Trump's children and their spouses will be running afoul of the anti-nepotism law.

Newt Gingrich said Monday that President-elect Donald Trump could simply pardon members of his administration who may break anti-nepotism laws, adding that Trump's business ties require "a whole new approach" to addressing potential conflicts of interest in the presidency.

“In the case of the president, he has a broad ability to organize the White House the way he wants to. He also has, frankly, the power of the pardon,” Gingrich told WAMU’s Diane Rehm on Monday morning. “It is a totally open power, and he could simply say, ‘Look, I want them to be my advisers. I pardon them if anyone finds them to have behaved against the rules. Period.' Technically, under the Constitution, he has that level of authority.”


TPM.

If Gingrich means that he could pardon them in advance for crimes they have not committed, I don't think he is right about that. But he could pardon them at close of business every Friday for any crimes committed that week. That should be enough to keep the prosecutors away.

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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by birdlite » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:45 pm

VinnyD wrote:On a related subject, Newt Gingrich had an ingenious solution to the probability that Trump's children and their spouses will be running afoul of the anti-nepotism law.

Newt Gingrich said Monday that President-elect Donald Trump could simply pardon members of his administration who may break anti-nepotism laws, adding that Trump's business ties require "a whole new approach" to addressing potential conflicts of interest in the presidency.

“In the case of the president, he has a broad ability to organize the White House the way he wants to. He also has, frankly, the power of the pardon,” Gingrich told WAMU’s Diane Rehm on Monday morning. “It is a totally open power, and he could simply say, ‘Look, I want them to be my advisers. I pardon them if anyone finds them to have behaved against the rules. Period.' Technically, under the Constitution, he has that level of authority.”


TPM.

If Gingrich means that he could pardon them in advance for crimes they have not committed, I don't think he is right about that. But he could pardon them at close of business every Friday for any crimes committed that week. That should be enough to keep the prosecutors away.


What Newt Gingrich said about pardons deserves its own thread...did you read the military part?

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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by birdlite » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:47 pm

Food for thought
President-elect Donald Trump’s advisors are drafting plans to resume workplace raids and to ramp up pressure on local police and jails to identify immigrants in the country illegally in an effort to meet Trump’s goal to deport 2 million to 3 million migrants who he says are criminals.

That could put the incoming Trump administration in direct conflict with Los Angeles and the laws of California, as well as other cities and states, setting the stage for an almost certain high-stakes legal and political battle.

The Obama administration set a priority in his second term of deporting migrants with criminal convictions, and it has expelled 530,000 convicted criminals since 2013. Since taking office in 2009, Obama has expelled 2.5 million people, more than any other president.

According to two senior officials in the transition team, Trump’s advisors will seek to widen that net to include migrants who have been charged but not convicted, suspected gang members and drug dealers, and people charged with such immigration violations as illegal reentry and overstaying visas, as well as lower-level misdemeanors.

If local authorities refuse to cooperate, Trump’s advisors are looking at withholding some federal law enforcement funds and equipment that go to state and local police agencies for holding federal prisoners or improving police practices.

On Monday, Los Angeles Police Chief Charlie Beck said he has no plans to change the LAPD’s refusal to enforce some federal immigration policies.

Under Beck, the department stopped turning over people arrested on suspicion of low-level crimes to federal agents for deportation and moved away from honoring federal requests to detain inmates who could be deported after their jail terms.

“I don’t intend on doing anything different,” he said. “We are not going to engage in law enforcement activities solely based on somebody’s immigration status. We are not going to work in conjunction with Homeland Security on deportation efforts. That is not our job, nor will I make it our job.”

In 2013, California Gov. Jerry Brown signed a law that bars state police from holding someone for immigration agents unless the suspect has been charged or convicted of a serious crime such as drug trafficking, child abuse or gang activity.

In recent years, police chiefs in numerous jurisdictions have rejected local enforcement of immigration laws, saying it makes immigrants less likely to report crimes or help police conduct investigations.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-p ... story.html

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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by rider5 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:25 pm

If the employers of illegals are not going to be punished harshly then it is destined to failure. So more of the same dog and pony show from the Republicans. We hate illegal immigration but love a cowed, easily intimidated labor force. What to do? What to do?

There were six years under the last Bush admin where the Rs could have dealt with the illegal 'problem' but chose not too. I'm expecting the same this go round.

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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by nycfellow » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:32 pm

Yeah, rider is right. The obvious way to get rid of illegal immigration is to punish employers - it's way easier than going after individuals. But how would rich people get their gardens taken care of if that were to happen? How would slaughterhouses stay in business?

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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by Jim-2012 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:44 pm

A better solution is to issue 2-year work visas to qualified Mexican & Canadian workers. That would make them legal and less subject to abuse and exploitation.
I don't understand the reason for not issuing work visas unless the people who employ illegal aliens don't want to pay higher wages that would result from such a change.
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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by polardude1 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:51 pm

A better solution is to issue 2-year work visas to qualified Mexican & Canadian workers. That would make them legal and less subject to abuse and exploitation.
I don't understand the reason for not issuing work visas unless the people who employ illegal aliens don't want to pay higher wages that would result from such a change

Ok, Jim, in 2012 there was serious work on immigration reform. Thanks in large part to Eric Cantor the most powerful congressmen n the house, progress with te Democrats and the president was being made. Cantor was heading the effort and without him, it would die. Then he lost in his district primary to a GOP rival. That was the end of any reform. The other Teabaggers took command and scuttle the effort
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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by VinnyD » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:29 pm

What Newt Gingrich said about pardons deserves its own thread...did you read the military part?

Birdlite, no. What did he say?

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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by birdlite » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:11 pm

VinnyD wrote:
What Newt Gingrich said about pardons deserves its own thread...did you read the military part?

Birdlite, no. What did he say?


Image

An expansion on what he said about nepotism.

Reading military comments on this was enlightening.

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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by eric84 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:14 pm

Didn't Watergate sort this all out?
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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by Ped_Yai » Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:45 pm

For that matter he could, if so inclined (which he is not) pardon all of them whatever their crime.


Obama cannot pardon a person of "whatever" crime, only a federal crime. A pardon related to a state crime comes from the governor of that state.
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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by VinnyD » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:16 pm

I don't think he is right that you can pardon somebody for doing something that they have not yet done.

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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by nycfellow » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:28 pm

I think The Newt means you tell the sucker he's going to get a pardon for it.

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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by Citizen Baba » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:30 pm

If you believe in a strict reading as many on the right claim to, the Constitution is also pretty clear by omission that immigration control is not a federal power.

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Re: Obama Could if he wanted

Post by korgy » Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:40 am

VinnyD wrote: And in any case I do not think he could pardon everyone in a given class without naming each of them.
you sure? in 1977, Carter granted a blanket pardon to hundreds of thousands of Vietnam era draft dodgers. how did that work?
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