Hillary Loses AGAIN!

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Maxwell
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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Maxwell » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:17 pm

nycfellow wrote:Well, it was Thomas Jefferson coined the term "separation of church and state" in specific reference to the establishment clause. So saying there's no "separation of church and state" would reject the the Framers' interpretation of meaning of that clause. And religious rights have never been absolute: I can't operate a death cult. But put that aside, and I'll take as given your contention that there has been a reduction in religious freedom. A ban on Christianity would require that there be someone who wanted such a ban. I have never heard anyone propose such a thing, or give the opinion that it would be a good thing. Have you ever heard of anyone in the US advocating banning Christianity? Not even the USSR or communist China actually banned Christianity, though both (especially China) have put some pretty strong limits on it.


The idea of separation of church and state has been twisted by the left. The left doesn't want any religious ideas or symbols in government or government property. That's twisted. The original idea of separation of church and state is to keep government out of people's religious life. We have Christian symbols all over the place in Washington DC. There has been a constant drip of erosion in American society of Christian rights. We have many leftists right here that will tell you to keep your Christianity in your home and church building. They don't want Christians to practice their religion in open society. Go ahead, start a thread on that topic and find out for yourself the thinking.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by nycfellow » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:20 pm

Hmm, but you said the left wanted to ban Christianity. I'll ask again, have you ever heard any American suggest that was a good course of action? And what politician would ever try, with the large majority of Americans Christian?

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Maxwell » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:35 pm

nycfellow wrote:Hmm, but you said the left wanted to ban Christianity. I'll ask again, have you ever heard any American suggest that was a good course of action? And what politician would ever try, with the large majority of Americans Christian?

Well, banning can be done many ways. When legislation is passed putting queer rights above mine, then mine are banned.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by nycfellow » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:36 pm

So when you wrote "banning Christianity" you meant making Christians make wedding cakes for gay weddings?

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Maxwell » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:42 pm

nycfellow wrote:So when you wrote "banning Christianity" you meant making Christians make wedding cakes for gay weddings?

Cancelling out. Don't get too technical. The point is Christians losing constitutional rights due to the leftist agenda that desires Christianity be dead.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by nycfellow » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:44 pm

Look, I'm just trying to figure out what you mean when you say that the left was close to banning Christianity. If you would tell me, I wouldn't have to guess.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Maxwell » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:52 pm

nycfellow wrote:Look, I'm just trying to figure out what you mean when you say that the left was close to banning Christianity. If you would tell me, I wouldn't have to guess.

I am telling you. Did you hear Hillary say Christians were going to have to change their beliefs? Perhaps you're thinking of one law that says "Christianity is Banned". It doesn't work like that. Like I've explained, it's a gradual erosion, then one day we look around and we're living in Nazi Germany as a Jew.
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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by nycfellow » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:54 pm

She did not say that. Read the whole passage from her speech; she said nothing of the sort. You can find the full text on Snopes:
http://www.snopes.com/clinton-christians-must-deny-faith/

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Maxwell » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:59 pm

nycfellow wrote:She did not say that. Read the whole passage from her speech; she said nothing of the sort. You can find the full text on Snopes:
http://www.snopes.com/clinton-christians-must-deny-faith/

Yes, she did say that. Laws must be enforced. Political will. Biases changed. Etc, etc. I know vwhat she said.
https://youtu.be/lh72xkI3aok
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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Maxwell » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:03 pm

Hillary: "Deep seated religious beliefs have to be changed".

You can't spin that. It's clear as day.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by nycfellow » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:06 pm

She's mostly talking about Islam. The context is women's rights around the world.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Maxwell » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:10 pm

nycfellow wrote:She's mostly talking about Islam. The context is women's rights around the world.

Bullcorn. I disagree. She was talking about abortion. She's running for President of the United States, not queen of the world. I think you're done here. You're starting to make up crap.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by nycfellow » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:20 pm

Well, the speech was at the Women and the World summit. And her intro paragraph is:

Yes, we've nearly closed the global gender gap in primary school, but secondary school remains out of reach for so many girls around the world. Yes, we've increased the number of countries prohibiting domestic violence, but still more than half the nations in the world have no such laws on the books, and an estimated one in three women still experience violence. Yes, we've cut the mortality rate in half, but far too many women are still denied critical access to reproductive health care and safe childbirth.


"World", "countries" and for the mortality rate, she's talking about the world. The word US does not appear. The word abortion does not appear.

When someone says they are talking about the world and different countries and does not mention the US, I infer they are talking about the world.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by coffeeguy » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:23 pm

Maxwell wrote:Thanks for proving to everyone, once again, that you are a complete and utter moron.


Hillary lost electors yesterday. She lost more than any candidate in the last 100 years. The most cheated on woman in America got cheated on again. Go to hell, loser.[/quote]

It's you that is the loser, too bad you're not smart enough to realize it. Maybe you will after 4 years. Doubt it though. Dogs like you take a lot of kicking to learn a lesson.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Maxwell » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:27 pm

nycfellow wrote:Well, the speech was at the Women and the World summit. And her intro paragraph is:

Yes, we've nearly closed the global gender gap in primary school, but secondary school remains out of reach for so many girls around the world. Yes, we've increased the number of countries prohibiting domestic violence, but still more than half the nations in the world have no such laws on the books, and an estimated one in three women still experience violence. Yes, we've cut the mortality rate in half, but far too many women are still denied critical access to reproductive health care and safe childbirth.


"World", "countries" and for the mortality rate, she's talking about the world. The word US does not appear. The word abortion does not appear.

When someone says they are talking about the world and different countries and does not mention the US, I infer they are talking about the world.

I see and you may be correct. However, I wouldn't trust anything she says. Anyway, she's finished, and I am so thankful for that.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Maxwell » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:29 pm

coffeeguy wrote:
Maxwell wrote:Thanks for proving to everyone, once again, that you are a complete and utter moron.


Hillary lost electors yesterday. She lost more than any candidate in the last 100 years. The most cheated on woman in America got cheated on again. Go to hell, loser.


It's you that is the loser, too bad you're not smart enough to realize it. Maybe you will after 4 years. Doubt it though. Dogs like you take a lot of kicking to learn a lesson.[/quote]

You strike me as just the kind of Neanderthal that beats his animals. Shame on you.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by nycfellow » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:35 pm

OK, but I'm back to my original question: do you really believe that "the left" was close to banning Christianity? The reason I keep harping on this is that if I believed that the American left actually wanted to do this, I would strongly oppose them. But though I am a liberal (and an atheist) and, living in Manhattan, the vast majority of people I know are liberals, I have never heard any support whatsoever for banning Christianity. Not from a single person, ever.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Maxwell » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:54 pm

nycfellow wrote:OK, but I'm back to my original question: do you really believe that "the left" was close to banning Christianity? The reason I keep harping on this is that if I believed that the American left actually wanted to do this, I would strongly oppose them. But though I am a liberal (and an atheist) and, living in Manhattan, the vast majority of people I know are liberals, I have never heard any support whatsoever for banning Christianity. Not from a single person, ever.

Yes, I believe there are many leftists that would agree with banning Christianity. The viscous hatred around here is proof.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by nycfellow » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:05 pm

There may be a couple of anti-religious people around here, but I've never seen anyone argue for banning Christianity. Believe me, the vast majority of people on the left have a great deal of respect for the bill of rights.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by temporaryhandle2 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:06 pm

Maxwell wrote:
nycfellow wrote:OK, but I'm back to my original question: do you really believe that "the left" was close to banning Christianity? The reason I keep harping on this is that if I believed that the American left actually wanted to do this, I would strongly oppose them. But though I am a liberal (and an atheist) and, living in Manhattan, the vast majority of people I know are liberals, I have never heard any support whatsoever for banning Christianity. Not from a single person, ever.

Yes, I believe there are many leftists that would agree with banning Christianity. The viscous hatred around here is proof.


Hey! I'm a "leftist " and a Christian. How do I ban myself?

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Godjira » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:48 pm

Hillary did win the popular vote. Remember that. It's very important.

And, celebrating her defeat will soon seem like the Japanese Imperial Navy celebrating the defeat of America at Pearl Harbor.
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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Maxwell » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:13 pm

temporaryhandle2 wrote:
Maxwell wrote:
nycfellow wrote:OK, but I'm back to my original question: do you really believe that "the left" was close to banning Christianity? The reason I keep harping on this is that if I believed that the American left actually wanted to do this, I would strongly oppose them. But though I am a liberal (and an atheist) and, living in Manhattan, the vast majority of people I know are liberals, I have never heard any support whatsoever for banning Christianity. Not from a single person, ever.

Yes, I believe there are many leftists that would agree with banning Christianity. The viscous hatred around here is proof.


Hey! I'm a "leftist " and a Christian. How do I ban myself?

I don't see how a Christian can be a leftist. Do you believe God condemns abortion and homosexuality?

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Godjira » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:15 pm

Where does the Bible mention abortion? God condemns divorce.

Go to hell hypocrite.
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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by temporaryhandle2 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:49 pm

Maxwell wrote:
temporaryhandle2 wrote:
Hey! I'm a "leftist " and a Christian. How do I ban myself?

I don't see how a Christian can be a leftist. Do you believe God condemns abortion and homosexuality?


Jesus gave us two rules Maxwell. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind and all your strength". The second rule is "Love Your Neighbour as Yourself".

No conditions, no exceptions. I believe it is our duty to try to make peoples' lives better. It is an expression of God's love. You can't do that by letting one group of people keep all the money and all the power. Social democracy is the expression of the love Jesus taught us about. Not unrestrained capitalism which is about power, selfishness and greed.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by avalon_ » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:57 pm

Why are all you people who wanted Trump as your president so obsessed with Clinton? It's over. Trump won. Focus your angst and hatred on something new. Isn't there a war on Christmas you should be concerned with?

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by VinnyD » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:01 am

Even the anti-religious groups that I know of don't want to ban any religion (aside from some rightists who want to exclude and register Muslims). They want to persuade people that the religions are false, Just as Christians and Muslims generally want to persuade people that their beliefs are true.

Perhaps Maxwell can link us to some of the left-wing groups that want to ban some religion.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by avalon_ » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:08 am

I obviously posted before I read the surrounding posts.

Max, where on here are people saying they want to ban Christianity or anything close to it? Even if someone said it here, would it really concern you that it would or could happen? I'm asking these questions because your fears are so foreign to me. I'm never heard anyone anywhere say anything close to that and even if someone on here made a disparaging remark about Christianity, that doesn't mean they want it banned in the U.S. Do your friends and family fear the same thing?

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Godjira » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:26 am

Jesus also said it would be better to be a eunuch than straight.

Gender minority equality for all!
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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by temporaryhandle2 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:13 am

I don't think he did Godjira. Happy for you to point out the relevant scriptural reference, though.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Godjira » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:29 am

Sure. From Matthew 19. I include verse 8 because it shows that if a Christian baker bakes cakes for divorced people's weddings, but not gay weddings, they are not being religious at all, but just being biased.


8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.
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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Maxwell » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:51 am

temporaryhandle2 wrote:
Maxwell wrote:
temporaryhandle2 wrote:
Hey! I'm a "leftist " and a Christian. How do I ban myself?

I don't see how a Christian can be a leftist. Do you believe God condemns abortion and homosexuality?


Jesus gave us two rules Maxwell. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind and all your strength". The second rule is "Love Your Neighbour as Yourself".

No conditions, no exceptions. I believe it is our duty to try to make peoples' lives better. It is an expression of God's love. You can't do that by letting one group of people keep all the money and all the power. Social democracy is the expression of the love Jesus taught us about. Not unrestrained capitalism which is about power, selfishness and greed.

Bullcorn. Jesus never used the government and taxes from working people to house, feed and heal people. Ever read the story of the good Samaritan? He used his own money to house and feed the victim. Then he told the innkeeper to keep an account and he would pay whatever was owed when he came back. If the good Samaritan would have been a socialist, he would have signed the victim up for public housing, food stamps and obamacare.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by temporaryhandle2 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:54 am

No.1 Jesus was talking about the inequity of religious divorce where you could just dump a woman on a whim and leave her destitute.

No. 2 since when is being a eunuch the same as being gay? He was talking about not forcing people into legalistic marriage.

But any way, the point is that too many fundamentalist Christians spend a lot of time thinking about sex, sin and money. And very little time thinking about the unconditional love Jesus taught about.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by temporaryhandle2 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:02 am

Bullcorn. Jesus never used the government and taxes from working people to house, feed and heal people. Ever read the story of the good Samaritan? He used his own money to house and feed the victim. Then he told the innkeeper to keep an account and he would pay whatever was owed when he came back. If the good Samaritan would have been a socialist, he would have signed the victim up for public housing, food stamps and obamacare.[/quote]

If rich people exercised charity, we wouldn't need government, Maxwell. But they don't. They amass riches and hide them away and avoid the social obligations you talk about. That is the point of the parable of the Good Samaritan. The Good Samaritan was an outsider who acted with compassion, while the religious and important men either ignored or blamed the person in need for his own suffering.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Godjira » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:05 am

temporaryhandle2 wrote:No.1 Jesus was talking about the inequity of religious divorce where you could just dump a woman on a whim and leave her destitute.

No. 2 since when is being a eunuch the same as being gay? He was talking about not forcing people into legalistic marriage.

But any way, the point is that too many fundamentalist Christians spend a lot of time thinking about sex, sin and money. And very little time thinking about the unconditional love Jesus taught about.


In regards to number 1, Jesus is clearly talking about divorce in general, no? He says it is a sin except in the case of adultery, or at least, it is a sin to remarry afterwards.

For number 2, I didn't say that being a eunuch is the same as being gay. Don't pin me down to your binary system, dude!! He says that it is better to be a eunuch, which I take as a kind of neutral non-sexual being, than heterosexual, which is what I meant by straight.
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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by nycfellow » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:06 am

To be fair, the bible never takes an explicit position one way or another on government welfare policies. For NT times, historically, that kind of thing was largely limited to the city of Rome itself.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Maxwell » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:08 am

temporaryhandle2 wrote:No.1 Jesus was talking about the inequity of religious divorce where you could just dump a woman on a whim and leave her destitute.

No. 2 since when is being a eunuch the same as being gay? He was talking about not forcing people into legalistic marriage.

But any way, the point is that too many fundamentalist Christians spend a lot of time thinking about sex, sin and money. And very little time thinking about the unconditional love Jesus taught about.


I agree Jesus loves every sinner. However, thst doesn't mean sin is okay. He wants to deliver us and forgive us like the woman at the well. Remember? He told her, "Go and sin no more".

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Maxwell » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:10 am

nycfellow wrote:To be fair, the bible never takes an explicit position one way or another on government welfare policies. For NT times, historically, that kind of thing was largely limited to the city of Rome itself.


We are living in New Testament times. The Federal government is too big. It's not meant to take care of people.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by nycfellow » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:13 am

Well you're right the Federal Government was not intended by the founders to be taking care of people. But times change. And we are far richer, as a nation, than the founders were ever likely to have imagined.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by temporaryhandle2 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:14 am

Our idea about divorce and the divorce Jesus was talking about was completely different. Jesus was addressing a specific social problem. The problem with fundamentalism and ignorant belief in the literal truth of the scriptures is that it allows people to ignore history and culture in order to exercise power over others. Jesus warned against this sort of hypocrisy all the time.

Sorry about pinning your binary. Hope it didn't hurt too much.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by temporaryhandle2 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:15 am

Maxwell wrote:
nycfellow wrote:To be fair, the bible never takes an explicit position one way or another on government welfare policies. For NT times, historically, that kind of thing was largely limited to the city of Rome itself.


We are living in New Testament times. The Federal government is too big. It's not meant to take care of people.


Nonsense. It's exactly what government is for because you can't trust people to do it themselves.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Godjira » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:17 am

From Matthew 17

Paying the Temple Tax
24 When Jesus and the others arrived in Capernaum, the collectors for the temple tax came to Peter and asked, [“Does your teacher pay the temple tax?”

25 “Yes, he does,”
Peter answered.

After they had returned home, Jesus went up to Peter and asked him, “Simon, what do you think? Do the kings of this earth collect taxes and fees from their own people or from foreigners?”[a]

26 Peter answered, “From foreigners.”

Jesus replied, “Then their own people don’t have to pay. 27 But we don’t want to cause trouble. So go cast a line into the lake and pull out the first fish you hook. Open its mouth, and you will find a coin. Use it to pay your taxes and mine.”



From Romans 13

[b]It is right for you to pay taxes because the leaders of the land are servants for God who care for these things. Pay taxes to whom taxes are to be paid. Be afraid of those you should fear. Respect those you should respect.


From Matthew 22

7 Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay the imperial tax[a] to Caesar or not?”

18 But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, “You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? 19 Show me the coin used for paying the tax.” They brought him a denarius, 20 and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”

21 “Caesar’s,” they replied.

Then he said to them, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”


From Matthew 11

The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and people say, ‘Look at him! He’s a glutton and a drunk, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’
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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Godjira » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:20 am

Sure, don't take care of the poor and starving. But, when they bust into Meth's hut to steal his supply of Spam and Twinkees, you can be sure he'll be looking for the government to protect his property rights.

The Constitution does say welfare, but more importantly, providing for the poorest ensures domestic tranquility. Just as the Tsar if he would have given some food away.

In any case, keep religion out of government.
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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by temporaryhandle2 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:23 am

I agree. But my religion affects my politics. I want a fair and equitable society.

That isn't socialism by the way. That is the essence of the Golden Rule.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Godjira » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:04 am

Of course. People should use whatever inspires them when choosing to vote.
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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Maxwell » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:52 am

nycfellow wrote:Well you're right the Federal Government was not intended by the founders to be taking care of people. But times change. And we are far richer, as a nation, than the founders were ever likely to have imagined.

So? You think you're entitled to what someone else earns?

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Maxwell » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:54 am

temporaryhandle2 wrote:Our idea about divorce and the divorce Jesus was talking about was completely different. Jesus was addressing a specific social problem. The problem with fundamentalism and ignorant belief in the literal truth of the scriptures is that it allows people to ignore history and culture in order to exercise power over others. Jesus warned against this sort of hypocrisy all the time.

Sorry about pinning your binary. Hope it didn't hurt too much.

Jesus was a fundamentalist. He believed Scripture to be the infallible Word of God.

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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Godjira » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:57 am

The hungry will eventually get what they need, whether you give it to them through taxes or they come to your home and take it.
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Maxwell
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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Maxwell » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:58 am

temporaryhandle2 wrote:
Maxwell wrote:
nycfellow wrote:To be fair, the bible never takes an explicit position one way or another on government welfare policies. For NT times, historically, that kind of thing was largely limited to the city of Rome itself.


We are living in New Testament times. The Federal government is too big. It's not meant to take care of people.


Nonsense. It's exactly what government is for because you can't trust people to do it themselves.


Yes, people can be trusted, and that's our form of government. You're idea of government is contrary to our founders and the Constitution. The Constitution is a blueprint for limited government, not limiting the people.

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Godjira
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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by Godjira » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:58 am

Maxwell wrote:Jesus was a fundamentalist. He believed Scripture to be the infallible Word of God.


Clearly not, because Jesus changed scripture, you idiot.
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Re: Hillary Loses AGAIN!

Post by northern_goddess » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:59 am

I thought Trump was going to give everyone a $30/hr job. No more poverty! Make AMerica Great AGain!!
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

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