Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Electoral

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Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Electoral

Post by ACommonLoon » Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:43 am

College until AFTER they fix their own rigged primary system with Superdelegates whose votes count THOUSANDS of times the regular voter.

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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by 5waldos » Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:57 am

Why do you care? We can choose our candidates any damn way we want. As well as it being a state's decision. We are now as a country choosing a president and you would be screaming blue murder if the situation was reversed and Trump was 2 1/2 million American's votes ahead and losing.

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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Annotated » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:01 am

5waldos wrote:Why do you care? We can choose our candidates any damn way we want. As well as it being a state's decision. We are now as a country choosing a president and you would be screaming blue murder if the situation was reversed and Trump was 2 1/2 million American's votes ahead and losing.


Yet another liberal "intellectual" who doesn't understand the electoral college. :roll:
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by 5waldos » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:11 am

Anno do you really believe that you saying something makes it true?

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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by korgy » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:12 am

Annotated wrote:
5waldos wrote:Why do you care? We can choose our candidates any damn way we want. As well as it being a state's decision. We are now as a country choosing a president and you would be screaming blue murder if the situation was reversed and Trump was 2 1/2 million American's votes ahead and losing.
Yet another liberal "intellectual" who doesn't understand the electoral college. :roll:
Annotated, what is it in waldo's post that makes you think she doesn't understand the electoral college?

do you think you are an intelligent person?
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Annotated » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:25 am

She clearly thinks the popular vote is important.

It's not.

It tells you nothing.

It's like saying Team A is better than Team B because they scored 4 field goals (worth 3 points each) but Team B only scored 3 touchdowns (worth 6 points each).

The electoral college is our system. That's the game. Those are the rules. The campaigns would have been run completely differently if the popular vote mattered. Voter turnout would have been different as well.

Believe it or not, the popular vote doesn't even tell you that Hillary is "more popular" than Trump.

Please now begin your whining that Trump still would have lost the popular vote if that had been the system we followed. Anything not ground in reality is always a good starting point for a libtard.
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Jim-2012 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:35 am

Don't underestimate the value of the EC as a firewall against invalid votes winning the election. If California had 5 million votes by non-citizens for HRC, and NY had 5 million votes by non-citizens for HRC, Trump still would have won the election. OTOH, without the EC, those 10 million invalid votes would have made her president. We must keep the Electoral College by all means.
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Godjira » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:57 am

Now you claim 10 million non-citizen votes? Jesus fucking Christ.

Suppose there were 50 billion illegal votes in PA, MI and FL?

If you want to see someone who doesn't understand the purpose of the electoral college, here he is.

Anyway, Trump lost the popular vote. This is the second time in 16 years that the GOP has forced some loser on the country in this way. That's after more than a century of the popular vote and electoral vote mirroring each other.

Time for reform.
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Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Electoral

Post by 5waldos » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:17 am

If only those damn martians had been able to vote like we wanted them to. That would have solved everything.

And my point stands. If trump had lost the EC but won the popular vote he and his followers would have screamed blue murder. Right or wrong, valid or not it would have happened.

In fact they were all set to bring down the election process if they had lost entirely- he had already set up that.

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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Flobster! » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:28 am

Anyway, I'm not seeing any complaining about the unfairness of the EC system here.
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by ExPat From Hell » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:37 am

Annotated wrote:She clearly thinks the popular vote is important.

It's not.

It tells you nothing.

It's like saying Team A is better than Team B because they scored 4 field goals (worth 3 points each) but Team B only scored 3 touchdowns (worth 6 points each).

The electoral college is our system. That's the game. Those are the rules. The campaigns would have been run completely differently if the popular vote mattered. Voter turnout would have been different as well.

Believe it or not, the popular vote doesn't even tell you that Hillary is "more popular" than Trump.

Please now begin your whining that Trump still would have lost the popular vote if that had been the system we followed. Anything not ground in reality is always a good starting point for a libtard.


My whining continues on the topic of what a fucktard you are. This exchange is a classic example of what is wrong with the country, and how you people feel that you can twist innocuous statements into adversarial dialogue and convince yourselves and other people like you that it is indeed the truth. I would feel deeply sorry for people like you if the stakes were not so high.
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Annotated » Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:16 pm

There are no innocuous statements here.

You conveniently leave out context.

Look at practically any thread in this place or turn to any liberal media and they are screaming about the popular vote as if it mattered, as if it actually tells you something of significance.

IT DOESN'T.

That's not our system, and these great liberal "intellectuals" have no fucking clue about anything other than how to whine and play the victim.

They really are pathetic simpletons.
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Godjira » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:01 pm

The popular vote does matter. It tells the winners how much public support they have. Trump should not act like he has a mandate.

Trump lost the popular vote. The GOP only won it once in the last 7 elections. They need to learn from this fact.
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Jim-2012 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:37 pm

Don't underestimate the value of the EC as a firewall against invalid votes winning the election. Speaking hypothetically, (for the English challenged) if California had 5 million votes by non-citizens for HRC, and NY had 5 million votes by non-citizens for HRC, Trump still would have won the election. OTOH, without the EC, those 10 million invalid votes would have made her president. We must keep the Electoral College by all means.
The EC doesn't prevent votes by non-citizens, but it makes it more difficult for the Dems to steal the election because they would need to find enough invalid votes in multiple states rather than just one or two.
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Higgs Bossom » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:42 pm

Godjira wrote:The popular vote does matter. It tells the winners how much public support they have. Trump should not act like he has a mandate.

Trump lost the popular vote. The GOP only won it once in the last 7 elections. They need to learn from this fact.


What exactly does the GOP need to learn? The Republicans won the election so should govern accordingly. Just because the Democrats are timid does not mean the GOP should or needs to do the same. The only ones that need to go to school are the Democrats. I'm sure Nancy Pelosi & Chuck Schumer are charting a bold new course as we speak.

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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by korgy » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:48 pm

Annotated wrote:She clearly thinks the popular vote is important.

It's not.

It tells you nothing.

It's like saying Team A is better than Team B because they scored 4 field goals (worth 3 points each) but Team B only scored 3 touchdowns (worth 6 points each).

The electoral college is our system. That's the game. Those are the rules. The campaigns would have been run completely differently if the popular vote mattered. Voter turnout would have been different as well.

Believe it or not, the popular vote doesn't even tell you that Hillary is "more popular" than Trump.
gosh, Annotated . i dont think any of us ever thought of that.

you mean election campaigns are run in a way to try to get the most electoral votes? man, you are really smart.

how did you figure that out? i thought Hillary chose Tim Kaine simply because he was the most qualified person to be the President following her.

if you have any other insights that we havent thought of, please let us know, Annotated.

Please now begin your whining that Trump still would have lost the popular vote if that had been the system we followed.


why of course -- Trump would have won California, where 12% of the US population resides! he would have won New York State! he would have won the entire Northeast! that is, if went had used a popular vote and he campaigned more there...

i mean, look how popular he is in those places now!

boy, you are a genius, Annotated!
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Godjira » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:15 pm

Higgs Bossom wrote:
Godjira wrote:The popular vote does matter. It tells the winners how much public support they have. Trump should not act like he has a mandate.

Trump lost the popular vote. The GOP only won it once in the last 7 elections. They need to learn from this fact.


What exactly does the GOP need to learn? The Republicans won the election so should govern accordingly. Just because the Democrats are timid does not mean the GOP should or needs to do the same. The only ones that need to go to school are the Democrats. I'm sure Nancy Pelosi & Chuck Schumer are charting a bold new course as we speak.


Go ahead, and get pummeled in the midterms.
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Godjira » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:17 pm

Another bad thing about the electoral college is that Russian hackers only had to tip the election in 3 or 4 states. It would have been much harder for them to change the popular vote across the country.
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by VinnyD » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:31 pm

They could not have known that in advance, Godjira.

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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Annotated » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:39 pm

korgy wrote:why of course -- Trump would have won California, where 12% of the US population resides! he would have won New York State! he would have won the entire Northeast! that is, if went had used a popular vote and he campaigned more there...

i mean, look how popular he is in those places now!

boy, you are a genius, Annotated!


In a popular vote election, you don't need to "win states."

STILL without a clue. :roll:

And as far as me being a genius ... in this company, yes, I'm a genius. MORE than a genius.
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by korgy » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:45 pm

Annotated: those are the most populous areas of the country, along with all the major urban centers. in 2010, 81% of the population lived in urban areas.

only 33% of California went for Trump in 2016.

perhaps you need to read up a little more on how the electoral college works if you dont understand how much more weight voters now have in rural areas of rural states than they do in urban areas.
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Lost Soul » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:59 pm

I see that some Dumbocrats are still stuck on the denial phase of grief.
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by cowtown » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:50 pm

Annotated wrote:
It's like saying Team A is better than Team B because they scored 4 field goals (worth 3 points each) but Team B only scored 3 touchdowns (worth 6 points each).




it's got that Three-Fifths Compromise vibe, that some votes are worth more than other votes and you support that under what system of rule?

You Republicans cling to an unequal system that favors white, rural citizens in everything; job bail outs, public assistances, farm welfare, redistribution of funds through federal tax appropriation and the amount a person’s vote counts

we get it, some Americans are more equal than others

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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Lost Soul » Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:03 pm

While others have moved on to the anger phase of grief.
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Ped_Yai » Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:13 pm

If trump had lost the EC but won the popular vote he and his followers would have screamed blue murder.


The "if the shoe were on the other foot" argument really only works when the claims being made have at least some scintilla of validity. The notion that getting more popular votes means something fails to meet even that low threshold.

If in fact Trump had gotten more votes overall, but lost in the EC, which he didn't, and he and his minions had "screamed blue murder", which they haven't, they would be every bit as wrong as the Democrats are now.
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by korgy » Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:44 pm

Ped, the reason the shoe-other-foot metaphor is meaningless because Democrats have won the popular vote in 7 out of the last 8 elections. and there has not been a Democratic President who won the electoral vote but lost the popular vote.

this is a problem for Democrats, not Republicans.
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Right_Turn » Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:49 pm

Eh, I think having a group of nine unelected judges for life deciding monumental issues based on their personal opinions is exponentially more undemocratic than the electoral college.

Anyone up for ditching the Supreme Court?

I'm not.

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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Lost Soul » Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:54 pm

Right_Turn wrote:Eh, I think having a group of nine unelected judges for life deciding monumental issues based on their personal opinions is exponentially more undemocratic than the electoral college.

Anyone up for ditching the Supreme Court?

I'm not.

I just wish they would invoke the 10th Amendment more for issues, like abortion, that aren't in the Constitution.
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Right_Turn » Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:00 pm

I wish they were term limited to something like 20 years so we could get rid of this ridiculous incentive for presidents to nominate younger judges just so they can cock block the court for 40 years.

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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Electrolyte » Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:10 pm

Right_Turn wrote:I wish they were term limited to something like 20 years so we could get rid of this ridiculous incentive for presidents to nominate younger judges just so they can cock block the court for 40 years.

I'd be in favor.

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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Higgs Bossom » Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:26 pm

Godjira wrote:What exactly does the GOP need to learn? The Republicans won the election so should govern accordingly. Just because the Democrats are timid does not mean the GOP should or needs to do the same. The only ones that need to go to school are the Democrats. I'm sure Nancy Pelosi & Chuck Schumer are charting a bold new course as we speak.


Go ahead, and get pummeled in the midterms.[/quote]

Sure, keep telling yourself that. The GOP will come close to having 60 Senate seats after 2018 as well as control 2/3 of the states. The only folks getting pummeled in the midterms will be Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer and what remains of their sorry regional party.

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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Higgs Bossom » Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:30 pm

korgy wrote:Ped, the reason the shoe-other-foot metaphor is meaningless because Democrats have won the popular vote in 7 out of the last 8 elections. and there has not been a Democratic President who won the electoral vote but lost the popular vote.

this is a problem for Democrats, not Republicans.


What has all that popular support garnered for the Democrats? Very little which is why people have and are abandoning them.

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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Jim-2012 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:32 pm

My nomination for the Supreme Court, Andrew Napolitano:
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by korgy » Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:17 pm

korgy wrote:Ped, the reason the shoe-other-foot metaphor is meaningless because Democrats have won the popular vote in 7 out of the last 8 elections. and there has not been a Democratic President who won the electoral vote but lost the popular vote.

this is a problem for Democrats, not Republicans.
correction: this should be "Democrats have won the popular vote in 6 out of the last 7 elections."
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Annotated » Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:55 pm

korgy wrote:
only 33% of California went for Trump in 2016.



Yet again, you show a complete ignorance of our system. You keep saying you understand, but then you keep making the same mistake by saying the popular vote proves something.

How many time do I have to repeat this: We use the electoral college. The popular vote means NOTHING because no one is striving for it.

It's like criticizing a football player for not hitting a home run in the Super Bowl.
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Annotated » Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:59 pm

korgy wrote:
korgy wrote:this is a problem for Democrats, not Republicans.
correction: this should be "Democrats have won the popular vote in 6 out of the last 7 elections."


Why are you talking about the popular vote again. Don't you understand it means nothing?

Korgy, you need a 5th grade civics lesson.

If all these liberal "intellectuals" actually knew how our system worked, maybe they wouldn't be so upset.
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by VinnyD » Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:03 pm

Right_Turn wrote:I wish they were term limited to something like 20 years so we could get rid of this ridiculous incentive for presidents to nominate younger judges just so they can cock block the court for 40 years.

I agree with that. I might want it somewhat longer than 20 years. But Clarence Thomas was 43 when he was named to the court. If he lasts as long as Oliver Wendell Holmes did, he will have been on the court for 47 years when he steps down. Too long for one person to have that much power.

An alternative to mandatory retirement would be a minimum age of 55, say.

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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by VinnyD » Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:07 pm

Jim, tinypic is child's play to use, and you won't stretch anyone's screen. It is a matter of common courtesy.

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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Jim-2012 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:36 pm

VinnyD wrote:Jim, tinypic is child's play to use, and you won't stretch anyone's screen. It is a matter of common courtesy.

I am merely linking to an image on the WWW; if your computer cannot handle images on the Web, you should get a better computer; Du hast das Geld dafür.
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by VinnyD » Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:46 pm

My iPad can handle them, but if I pinch to zoom so that the type is big enough to read, I only see about a quarter of the picture. Just his hand. I imagine it is worse for many people using their phones.

So it isn't just a matter of common courtesy, although of course it is that; it's a question of whether you want people to see what you post.

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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by VinnyD » Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:47 pm

I would be happy to explain how to use tinypic if you don't find it self-explanatory. Just ask.

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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Godjira » Sat Dec 03, 2016 12:39 am

VinnyD wrote:They could not have known that in advance, Godjira.


They were ready to hack in additional states as needed. That's why PA flipped so late.
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Godjira » Sat Dec 03, 2016 12:47 am

Higgs Bossom wrote:Sure, keep telling yourself that. The GOP will come close to having 60 Senate seats after 2018 as well as control 2/3 of the states. The only folks getting pummeled in the midterms will be Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer and what remains of their sorry regional party.


Keep telling yourself that. It help the reaming slide in like Astroglide.

You better pray that Trump yields results, or it'll be 2006 all over again
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Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Electoral

Post by Godjira » Sat Dec 03, 2016 12:50 am

It's just important to remember that Trump lost the popular vote. The GOP only won it once since 1992.

This election was divisive, and the GOP's congressional gains were puny. If Trump really fucks up, it's going to be a disaster for the GOP.

But let's hope that all Americans move together in unity and progress despite the tyranny of a tiny minority who voted for Trump.

Isn't it interesting that we went from the classiest and most intelligent president in generations to the trashiest and most stupid?
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Electrolyte » Sat Dec 03, 2016 12:59 am

I don't think anyone is going to pay attention to someone who complains about the system after the election. The time to complain was before.

And Trump has a fair point that if it was the popular vote that mattered he would have campaigned differently.

But my bet is that if it were the popular vote Hillary would have won. Both candidates would have campaigned heavily in NY and CA, bringing out more voters there, which surely would have helped Hillary.

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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Jim-2012 » Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:17 am

In 2005, the U.S. Government Accountability Office found that up to 3 percent of the 30,000 individuals called for jury duty from voter registration rolls over a two-year period in just one U.S. district court were not U.S. citizens.[1] While that may not seem like many, just 3 percent of registered voters would have been more than enough to provide the winning presidential vote margin in Florida in 2000. Indeed, the Census Bureau estimates that there are over a million illegal aliens in Florida,[2] and the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) has prosecuted more non-citizen voting cases in Florida than in any other state.[3]
Florida is not unique. Thousands of non-citizens are registered to vote in some states, and tens if not hundreds of thousands in total may be present on the voter rolls nationwide. These numbers are significant: Local elections are often decided by only a handful of votes, and even national elections have likely been within the margin of the number of non-citizens illegally registered to vote.
Yet there is no reliable method to determine the number of non-citizens registered or actually voting because most laws to ensure that only citizens vote are ignored, are inadequate, or are systematically undermined by government officials. Those who ignore the implications of non-citizen registration and voting either are willfully blind to the problem or may actually favor this form of illegal voting.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/07/the-threat-of-non-citizen-voting
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Electrolyte
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Electrolyte » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:19 am

So why is there no evidence of voter fraud in the past?

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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Godjira » Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:35 am

I looked at the original document and that's not an accurate interpretation of the stats. Jim is just upset because he knows Russian hackers turned the election
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by kirrabi » Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:42 am

Given that 5 people out of 9 can change the Constitution over a court case I don't want to be swapping justices in and out. Leave them in there as an anchor to slow the trendy con jobs the social tinkerers come up. If people want something done then goose the cowards in Congress.
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Re: Democrats need to STFU about the unfairness of the Elect

Post by Lost Soul » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:39 pm

Jim-2012 wrote:My nomination for the Supreme Court, Andrew Napolitano:

Excellent choice!

I miss his show.
IMPRISON BUSH!

INDICT HILLARY!

"Lost Soul is largely correct"- VinnyD

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