Saving a Company

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5waldos
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Saving a Company

Post by 5waldos » Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:25 pm

Sorry- this is too funny- Trump cheering himself on for saving the Carrier Plant.

How many air conditioners have you guys made?

True answer- Zero. The factory makes furnaces.

Can't his team even get this right? You'd think someone would have cued him in to this little fact before he boasted again and again about the airconditioning he saved.

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by birdlite » Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:49 pm

Let's just call it "the air conditioner bailout"

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by muthafunky » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:25 pm

I thought he was boasting about the jobs he saved, not the air conditioners he saved.

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by Chi_Rup » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:42 pm

Easy mistake to make, the air temperature is a lot warmer on his home planet.

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by 5waldos » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:34 pm

muthafunky wrote:I thought he was boasting about the jobs he saved, not the air conditioners he saved.

He was but then challenged the crowd-How many have you made. People were quiet.

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by korgy » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:49 pm

was listening to some guy talking about manufacturing on the radio --

cant remember the exact value, but basically, he was saying the US is not actually down in manufacturing output right now--- the thing is, it only takes 5 people to make what it used to take 25 workers to make, and it is only going to get worse that way

what is needed is low-level engineers, people who know how to run the programs that run the machinery
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Re: Saving a Company

Post by 5waldos » Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:08 am

Must have been listening to the same show and I don't remember the specifics either

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by Godjira » Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:19 am

People also need to learn a skill that requires a dexterity and knowledge that cannot be automated, like being a plumber, electrician or building contractor.
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Re: Saving a Company

Post by muthafunky » Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:51 am

The US is still a huge manufacturing country. Output is at an all time high and something like three times what it was in 1980. It's true, we don't make as many springs or hammers but who cares about that third world shit anyway.

No, the real problem is that factories are more robotic than ever and we just don't need many people working on an assembly line. As long as poor countries stay poor they'll employ slaves on the assembly lines, but as they get richer you'll see more robots there too.

As I've said in other threads, it's when all transportation becomes automated that you'll really see the labor force decimated.

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by Electrolyte » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:29 am

5waldos wrote:Can't his team even get this right? You'd think someone would have cued him in to this little fact before he boasted again and again about the airconditioning he saved.

Like he or his voters give a s---. They'd be happy to dig holes and fill them in again. They don't care whether anyone actually wants what they make or even what they make.

After years of screaming with veins bulging that Obama is a socialist they reveal themselves to be the socialists.

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by 5waldos » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:19 am

Electrolyte wrote:
5waldos wrote:Can't his team even get this right? You'd think someone would have cued him in to this little fact before he boasted again and again about the airconditioning he saved.

Like he or his voters give a s---. They'd be happy to dig holes and fill them in again. They don't care whether anyone actually wants what they make or even what they make.

After years of screaming with veins bulging that Obama is a socialist they reveal themselves to be the socialists.

Yes well there is that.

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by guruwil » Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:08 am

Electrolyte wrote:
5waldos wrote:Can't his team even get this right? You'd think someone would have cued him in to this little fact before he boasted again and again about the airconditioning he saved.

Like he or his voters give a s---. They'd be happy to dig holes and fill them in again. They don't care whether anyone actually wants what they make or even what they make.

After years of screaming with veins bulging that Obama is a socialist they reveal themselves to be the socialists.


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Re: Saving a Company

Post by -americanjoe- » Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:14 am

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by Annotated » Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:03 pm

Electrolyte wrote:After years of screaming with veins bulging that Obama is a socialist they reveal themselves to be the socialists.


Fun fact: The people who turned the election for Trump were also Obama voters.
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Re: Saving a Company

Post by coffeeguy » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:06 pm

Indiana has to offer a $7M payoff to keep Carrier from moving. And not a word from the right about corporate welfare.

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by NorthAmerican » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:45 pm

coffeeguy wrote:Indiana has to offer a $7M payoff to keep Carrier from moving. And not a word from the right about corporate welfare.
I saw a news analysis that said the state of Indiana gave Carrier $1.7 million in tax breaks to keep the company in Indiana, and when Carrier moved some of its operations to Mexico the state insisted that it be paid back, and Carrier returned the money. Now President-elect Trump works out a deal that rewards Carrier with four times what Indiana gave it last time. Who pays? The taxpayers, of course.
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Re: Saving a Company

Post by muthafunky » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:46 pm

Are you guys against tax breaks for companies to keep jobs where they are?

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by Right_Turn » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:50 pm

NorthAmerican wrote:
coffeeguy wrote:Indiana has to offer a $7M payoff to keep Carrier from moving. And not a word from the right about corporate welfare.
I saw a news analysis that said the state of Indiana gave Carrier $1.7 million in tax breaks to keep the company in Indiana, and when Carrier moved some of its operations to Mexico the state insisted that it be paid back, and Carrier returned the money. Now President-elect Trump works out a deal that rewards Carrier with four times what Indiana gave it last time. Who pays? The taxpayers, of course.


So, "who pays" if Carrier goes ahead with the plan to ship those jobs to Mexico?

There's no easy answers here, but you all keep conveniently omitting that little piece.

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by Citizen Baba » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:55 pm

muthafunky wrote:Are you guys against tax breaks for companies to keep jobs where they are?


Generally, yes. This is simply kicking the inevitable down the road and inviting others to blackmail the state of Indiana.

I'd be better with it if there was a plan to transition the younger generation to something more viable.

Admittedly, this is a relative pittance for not that many jobs, so it's not a big deal. But if this is Trump's grand idea to Make America Great Again, it's a house of cards.

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by Citizen Baba » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:56 pm

Right_Turn wrote:
NorthAmerican wrote:
coffeeguy wrote:Indiana has to offer a $7M payoff to keep Carrier from moving. And not a word from the right about corporate welfare.
I saw a news analysis that said the state of Indiana gave Carrier $1.7 million in tax breaks to keep the company in Indiana, and when Carrier moved some of its operations to Mexico the state insisted that it be paid back, and Carrier returned the money. Now President-elect Trump works out a deal that rewards Carrier with four times what Indiana gave it last time. Who pays? The taxpayers, of course.


So, "who pays" if Carrier goes ahead with the plan to ship those jobs to Mexico?

There's no easy answers here, but you all keep conveniently omitting that little piece.


There have been a net of 80,000 manufacturing jobs created in Indiana during the Obama administration. What sweetheart deals did they receive?

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by Citizen Baba » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:58 pm

I do think this will be routine: Trump "accomplishing" something that doesn't comprise a hill of beans in the grand scheme of things and helicoptering down for adoration and press.

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by -americanjoe- » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:02 pm

He isn't even president yet and he accomplished something the sitting president said was impossible 2 years ago.
And you won't even give him credit for it.

Do you not think this shows any bias on your part?
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Re: Saving a Company

Post by Citizen Baba » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:07 pm

-americanjoe- wrote:He isn't even president yet and he accomplished something the sitting president said was impossible 2 years ago.
And you won't even give him credit for it.

Do you not think this shows any bias on your part?


Handing out bribes isn't an accomplishment.

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by ASQ » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:07 pm

So when all of the products get made in the USA again and their price quadruples, are the workers going to be able to afford to buy what they built?

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by Citizen Baba » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:09 pm

Again, I'm sure if the government was going to subsidize them enough, we could bring back horse-drawn plows and hand-sewn clothes. This would create employment, but I don't think it could be ranked as a real accomplishment.

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by Godjira » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:21 pm

muthafunky wrote:Are you guys against tax breaks for companies to keep jobs where they are?


I'm not, but there needs to be more. There needs to be long term structural advantages besides tax breaks.
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Re: Saving a Company

Post by VinnyD » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:36 pm

muthafunky wrote:Are you guys against tax breaks for companies to keep jobs where they are?

Generally, yes. They unfairly discriminate against companies who never announced plans to leave, and makes it to easy for a company to reduce its tax bill by announcing such plans.

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by VinnyD » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:43 pm

Since February 2010, we have averaged about 200,000 new jobs created every month.

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by Right_Turn » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:09 pm

Citizen Baba wrote:
-americanjoe- wrote:He isn't even president yet and he accomplished something the sitting president said was impossible 2 years ago.
And you won't even give him credit for it.

Do you not think this shows any bias on your part?


Handing out bribes isn't an accomplishment.


But handing out multi-billion dollar bailouts is?

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by muthafunky » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:37 pm

VinnyD wrote:
muthafunky wrote:Are you guys against tax breaks for companies to keep jobs where they are?

Generally, yes. They unfairly discriminate against companies who never announced plans to leave, and makes it to easy for a company to reduce its tax bill by announcing such plans.


What about companies that employ a lot of people and have been actively moving those jobs to other locations that are cheaper?

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by Citizen Baba » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:42 pm

Right_Turn wrote:
Citizen Baba wrote:
-americanjoe- wrote:He isn't even president yet and he accomplished something the sitting president said was impossible 2 years ago.
And you won't even give him credit for it.

Do you not think this shows any bias on your part?


Handing out bribes isn't an accomplishment.


But handing out multi-billion dollar bailouts is?


During a major economic downturn, we should pull out all stops. During normal times, we should ixnay corporate handouts.

I'm a Keynesian. This is East Asian-type state-led capitalism, even if it's in miniature at this juncture.

Free market conservatives should be the most outraged. But, we usually find, that their values always take a backseat to party loyalty.

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by Electrolyte » Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:25 am

muthafunky wrote:
VinnyD wrote:
muthafunky wrote:Are you guys against tax breaks for companies to keep jobs where they are?

Generally, yes. They unfairly discriminate against companies who never announced plans to leave, and makes it to easy for a company to reduce its tax bill by announcing such plans.


What about companies that employ a lot of people and have been actively moving those jobs to other locations that are cheaper?

Even better. The tax breaks will only be for big companies, and to qualify they will be required to actually move some jobs first.

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by Electrolyte » Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:28 am

Right_Turn wrote:
Citizen Baba wrote:Handing out bribes isn't an accomplishment.


But handing out multi-billion dollar bailouts is?

Handing out multi-billion dollar bailouts, when it is done, is a necessity. In order to avoid that necessity we implement measures like Dodd-Frank ... oh, wait.

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by guruwil » Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:23 am

It's stupid
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Re: Saving a Company

Post by VinnyD » Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:01 pm

If Trump and Pence manage a Carrier deal every week, in thirty years they will have saved as many jobs as the GM deal.

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by korgy » Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:01 am

Godjira wrote:People also need to learn a skill that requires a dexterity and knowledge that cannot be automated, like being a plumber, electrician or building contractor.
right , but the topic is whether or not manufacturing is leaving the US in general. as mutha points out, we are at a high in manufacturing levels right now -- we just dont need that many humans to perform low-level physical tasks that dont require advanced training

yes, if people want decent jobs, they need to learn trades and moved to populated areas where those trades are sorely needed. unfortunately, it is not always so easy even to get training or apprenticeship in trades as many people claim if you don't have money. and living in areas where those trades are needed is sometimes expensive.
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Re: Saving a Company

Post by Godjira » Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:12 am

The US also needs to increase exports.
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Re: Saving a Company

Post by northern_goddess » Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:01 am

Anyway, Trump said he was going to tax companies who outsourced jobs, not give them tax breaks as a bribe keep the jobs in America.
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Re: Saving a Company

Post by muthafunky » Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:22 am

I doubt the people care if their jobs stay from a tax break vs tax increase as long as the jobs stay.

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by northern_goddess » Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:31 am

muthafunky wrote:I doubt the people care if their jobs stay from a tax break vs tax increase as long as the jobs stay.


I doubt they care either. And giving tax breaks as incentives is not uncommon.

But that's not what he said he was going to do, is it? He said he was going to penalize companies that outsourced jobs.
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Re: Saving a Company

Post by muthafunky » Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:32 am

So? I don't think it matters much.

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by northern_goddess » Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:34 am

No, saying you are going to handle a situation one way and then doing almost the opposite never matters.
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Re: Saving a Company

Post by northern_goddess » Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:35 am

One approach actually costs money and the other would bring in additional revenue. No big difference there at all.
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Re: Saving a Company

Post by muthafunky » Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:59 am

northern_goddess wrote:No, saying you are going to handle a situation one way and then doing almost the opposite never matters.


Are you familiar with Trump and his supporters?

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by muthafunky » Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:01 am

northern_goddess wrote:One approach actually costs money and the other would bring in additional revenue. No big difference there at all.


Punishing businesses who move jobs is a terrible idea. I'm still hoping that it was just stupid campaign rhetoric. Reducing and simplifying taxes is a much better idea, incentivizing in general is the way to go.

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by northern_goddess » Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:08 am

muthafunky wrote:
northern_goddess wrote:One approach actually costs money and the other would bring in additional revenue. No big difference there at all.


Punishing businesses who move jobs is a terrible idea. I'm still hoping that it was just stupid campaign rhetoric. Reducing and simplifying taxes is a much better idea, incentivizing in general is the way to go.


I agree but it was one of those things that seemed to resonate with his base. Your previous point about Trump and many of his supporters is well taken though.
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Re: Saving a Company

Post by muthafunky » Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:14 am

I think it's obvious that some of his campaign rhetoric was just inflammatory rhetoric. Frankly, the more that's the case the happier I'll be.

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by Godjira » Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:07 pm

In other words, Trump is a liar and the ends justify the means.
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Re: Saving a Company

Post by VinnyD » Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:56 pm

muthafunky wrote:I doubt the people care if their jobs stay from a tax break vs tax increase as long as the jobs stay.

The employees don't. The other Indiana companies who ae paying their fullt taxes because they never threatened to leave might. Especially any who are in competition with Carrier. The government should generally treat similarly situated taxpayers equally.

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Re: Saving a Company

Post by -americanjoe- » Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:45 pm

Post by Godjira » Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:07 pm
In other words, Trump is a liar and the ends justify the means.
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