The EU grows some balls...

Keep it civil or we'll send in UN peacekeepers
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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by Logg » Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:44 am

TerryTeo wrote:
Disco wrote:So where does the Jewish Quarter of the Old City fall on Europe's map?


As was previously noted, was the land in Israeli hands before the '67 War, or did Israel take possession following? You know the answer to that, so the answer is straight forward. You can pretend that this is complicated, but in reality it isn't. Israel will clearly retain the Jewish Quarter following any final peace settlement, so it is in Israels interests, in so far as this move by the EU will impact, to reach final peace settlement, sooner rather than later.

Particularly since there are numerous educational facilities within the JQ and these will be specifically impacted by the EU's directive.

The EU directive is not a determinant of the borders, but an accepted (not by Israel admittedly) base line to establish a point from which to proceed its action. For sentimental reasons, you are focusing on an area (the JQ), that is home to a little over 2,000 residents, when the real implications of this directive are directed at the hundreds of thousands of settlers on occupied territory beyond Jerusalem.

The existence of Arab lobby groups and lefties may provide a convenient excuse for you to dismiss the seriousness of this action by the EU, but unless you can make these lobby groups disappear and then persuade the EU populace that Israel does have a divine right to occupy the Palestinian territories, the reality is that Israel is facing a gradual swell of similar protest actions.

I am pleased to see that John Kerry has announced the impending resumption of direct negotiations between the Palestinians and Israelis.


Mm-hmm.

"Sentimental reasons"? Yes, thank you for explaining that, O Great White Father. Yes, I get all weepy about the Jewish Quarter.

The Jewish Quarter is the most obvious piece of land that is problematic in any 'all of the 67 territory' type of formula, which is why I asked. So, you've cleared up that this EU proclamation isn't meant to be taken literally on face value. I didn't think so.

As far as balls, I think it takes balls to say that this proclamation takes balls. It's the opposite. Balls on a European would be facing down China against Tibet, or even designating Hizbollah a terrorist organization, which for some strange reason they don't have the balls to do.

They play this form of hardball with Israel because they can. There's no ballsiness to it. That's why it's such a wishy-washy proclamation, heavy on rhetoric, vague on followthrough, like all their stuff. This proclamation will make their various Greens and whatnot somewhat happy, and maybe it will keep the natives from burning down Marseilles and Malmo for another six months. But it's just a proclamation that has no teeth or balls, and will be very difficult to effectively enforce should they decide to.

If the Israelis gave enough of a shit to put up a competent government and staff their foreign ministry with respectable people instead of dopes like Lieberman, then I might be more interested. But since the Israelis don't seem to give a fuck, I'm not gonna get emotionally invested in this.

For a professional Palestinian lobbyist, this is indeed the big news of the year. To me, it just looks like more of the same.

To call the EU's selective targeting of Israel "ballsy" is rather funny though. It's the opposite of that. It's the safest bet possible, both to target Israel while ignoring China and maintaining friendly relations with Hizbollah, and to know full well that this is not trade related and non-binding.

The Arabs have nothing left but to try to ram BDS through against Israel. And as such, they'll take something like this and call it a huge victory, loudly trumpeted by their many paid lobbyists. Before this, the biggest news was that Roger Waters was boycotting Israel. And you can always depend on the Europeans to help with this sort of thing.

If the EU is going to indulge in BDS, I wonder how long the member nations will keep funding it.

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by polardude1 » Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:01 am

Terror s set on the Green Line being an international border because it is "widely accepted".
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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by queenrania » Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:42 am

Hahaha..the ignoramuses are comical..they do not understand the issue sovereignty...which does not apply to Judea and Samaria.

It is also comical that on the day when 10k Syrians are slaughtered and Egypt is in a free fall the Euros are striking at Israel and the anti-Semites are rejoicing. Sick! Sick!

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by TerryTeo » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:42 am

So, you've cleared up that this EU proclamation isn't meant to be taken literally on face value. I didn't think so.


Comprehension is your problem. In so far as the EU directive is concerned, the JQ is occupied territory and should be treated as such, until such a time as through a negotiated settlement, the JQ becomes internationally recognised as Israeli territory. Simple really. I'd expect Rainman to struggle with that, as he clearly is, but not you. Agree or disagree, the explanation is simple.

Pretending that Israel doesn't care when the Prime Minister and President were feverishly working through calls to European leaders through the later part of the week and summonsing European ambassadors to attention, is another of your delusions.

This will be the first of several diplomatic initiatives queuing up to see the light and with this shot across the bow, expect Israel to start waking from its slumber and making gestures towards the Palestinians in order to prevent their release. It will encourage the Israelis to engage with the peace process, knowing that the alternative won't be being left to their own devices.

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by polardude1 » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:54 am

In so far as the EU directive is concerned, the JQ is occupied territory and should be treated as such, until such a time as through a negotiated settlement


It does not mean he directive is correct or has legal bearing, does it?


But do continue.
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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by Logg » Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:36 pm

Okay, thanks terry.

Pity the board thinks this subject needs to be relegated to the very bottom branch of the forum.

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by queenrania » Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:26 pm

Logg wrote:Okay, thanks terry.

Pity the board thinks this subject needs to be relegated to the very bottom branch of the forum.


Hahaha...I have always said there is value in their anti-Semitic fervor. What would the world be like without the anti-Semitic outbursts and hollow analysis at the time when 100K Syrians have just been exterminated by their own Syrian regime?

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by TerryTeo » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:42 pm

Rainman wrote:
In so far as the EU directive is concerned, the JQ is occupied territory and should be treated as such, until such a time as through a negotiated settlement


It does not mean he directive is correct or has legal bearing, does it?

But do continue.


No Rainman, you continue. Continue to example the contrarian view that characterises the same approach Israels leaders take. It is precisely this obstinance that has motivated these actions and while you may attempt to dismiss them, they have already had influence.


Heres a good summary for you and Disco

So what is the problem with Israel's claim to what it calls Judea and Samaria and what most of the world calls the West Bank?

Almost no one accepts Israel's claims that the Geneva Convention does not apply to the territories gained in 1967 because they did not previously belong to any country or that its citizens can voluntarily choose to move into occupied territory. The International Court of Justice in The Hague also rejected these claims when it ruled on Israel's West Bank separation barrier in 2004. It is clear that because the settlements were established by government edict and with a hefty amount of funds allocated from the state budget, their establishment falls under the definition of a population transfer in contravention of the Geneva Convention.Israel is trying to have its cake and eat it too. On the one hand, it did not annex the West Bank into its sovereign borders or apply Israeli civil law and administration there. Palestinian residents of the West Bank were not granted Israeli citizenship. Israel enacted military rule in the West Bank and operates by this authority. When, for example, Israel confiscates land for security purposes, it does so under the international laws of occupation (found in the Hague Conventions) that impart specific powers to military commanders in occupied territory. On the other hand, Israel claims that the Geneva Convention does not apply to the West Bank, so the restrictions included in the Geneva Convention do not apply. The result is that Israel sometimes acts in the territories as if they are part of its sovereign territory: establishing Israeli cities, communities and factories and applies Israeli law to Israeli citizens living in this territory. However, Israel simultaneously treats that West Bank as occupied territory, administering it under martial law, with the original inhabitants of the occupied territory, the Palestinians, not given the same status as Israeli citizens. While at the same time Palestinian inhabitants are not given the full rights of residents of an occupied territory, including the provision preventing the occupying power from evicting them in favor of its own citizens. The Europeans are not willing to let grants they earmark for Israel to fund this policy.



http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... m-1.536887

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by polardude1 » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:11 pm

Almost no one accepts Israel's claims that the Geneva Convention does not apply


IS that the same as "widely accepted"

Or we can say it is the popular belief

Are those legal terms


he International Court of Justice in The Hague also rejected these claims when it ruled on Israel's West Bank separation barrier in 2004


So who did the West Bank belong to prior to 67? I don' think you ever answered that question.

OH BTW, the green line is not under any circumstances an international border
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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by TerryTeo » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:22 pm

Since news broke of this EU initiative, Israeli contrarians have been arguing that such a move would damage the peace process (what peace process?) and embolden the Palestinians to entrench their opposition to negotiations.

Some here even dismissed the EU's move as inconsequential and felt that it wouldn't influence Israeli leaders. Well it has and they were wrong. Israel has also just agreed to release Palestinian prisoners, some who have been in captivity for over a decade, some I expect will be high profile.

Unfortunately no word yet on Marwan Barghoutti, but a viable opposition to Abbas is essential for the Palestinians, if the Peace Process is to have a chance of success.

Behind the scenes of diplomatic breakthrough

EU made Netanyahu go the extra mile, U.S. threats left Abbas with no choice

U.S. officials say unexpected European sanctions move helped pave way for Kerry plan progress.

Last Tuesday, after Haaretz first published the new European Union sanctions on settlements, an incensed Benjamin Netanyahu called Secretary of State John Kerry, requesting that he swiftly contact European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso to get him to ease the sanctions. Kerry agreed and called Barroso the next day but, according to senior U.S. and Israeli officials, he also told Netanyahu the he must consider the European move a “warning sign” for what would happen if talks with the Palestinians weren’t resumed. Kerry said that if his efforts failed, Israel could face an even stronger delegitimization drive.

U.S. officials say they weren’t in the know of the European move, but still, the Obama administration did not deplore its essence or timing. While Netanyahu insisted the EU move would damage Kerry’s efforts, both Israeli and U.S. officials told Haaretz that, in fact, the EU sanctions caused flexibility on both sides, enabling Kerry’s mission to end in success.

The officials said the Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas felt that the EU sanctions supported his position and therefore encouraged him to give up on his demand for a complete settlement freeze. Netanyahu, on the other hand, was alarmed by the sanctions’ effect on Israeli markets and on its international standing; furthermore he feared that Israeli public would blame him personally for Israel’s isolation.

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by polardude1 » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:36 pm

The officials said the Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas felt that the EU sanctions supported his position and therefore encouraged him to give up on his demand for a complete settlement freeze.

Is that like the PA saying they made concessions but won?


How is Hamas dealing with this
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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by TerryTeo » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:43 pm

Rainman wrote:
Almost no one accepts Israel's claims that the Geneva Convention does not apply


IS that the same as "widely accepted"

Or we can say it is the popular belief

Are those legal terms

he International Court of Justice in The Hague also rejected these claims when it ruled on Israel's West Bank separation barrier in 2004


So who did the West Bank belong to prior to 67? I don' think you ever answered that question.

OH BTW, the green line is not under any circumstances an international border



You're repeating the same circular arguments that you have for years, indifferent to all that has been offered to you in respect of providing an answer or explanation. If it is beyond your ability to learn, stop asking questions. It's really simple. The answers to your questions here were available in the link I previously provided.

Here's the link again.

If you're not prepared to accept this explanation from an 'independent' source, you're unlikely to accept mine. That being the case, stop asking disingenuous questions that are simply masking excuses.

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by TerryTeo » Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:11 am

Rainman wrote:
The officials said the Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas felt that the EU sanctions supported his position and therefore encouraged him to give up on his demand for a complete settlement freeze.

Is that like the PA saying they made concessions but won?

How is Hamas dealing with this


Abbas pushed himself into a corner by insisting on the settlement freeze as the cornerstone of his policy. In doing so, any time that Netanyahu found himself under pressure to resume talks, he'd announce more settlements and throw the ball back into Abbass court for him to reject any meeting. I agree with the principles of Abbass position but he played it poorly. By backing down without anything to show for it, he would hand a victory to Hamas, who are themselves struggling at the moment. For Hamas, being in opposition was easy, delivering in power is difficult, particularly with the MB in Egypt out of power, Syria crumbling and a change at the top in Iran, with the implications of that not yet clear.

As adamant that Abbas is that the settlements must stop, he needed an excuse to sell to his people, for returning to negotiations without an announced freeze in place. It may well be that Netanyahu has given Kerry certain assurances about an implied settlement freeze during this new window of negotiations, but Netanyahu has proven that he can't be trusted and at any point negotiations get difficult, there'll be an announcement of new building permits beyond the green line. The American, Europeans and Palestinians will no doubt anticipate this, its how they react to it that will be interesting.

From Netanyahus perspective, his current coalition has a large pro-settlement contingent, so there may be some manouvering that will result in a new coalition taking shape over the next 6-9 months.

Hamas possibly don't have the financial capability and international backing to initiate a new war at this time, but they may turn a blind eye to Islamic Jihad terrorists launching rockets from Gaza. Some of its new funding is coming from the Gulf States and they appear to be on board with Kerrys attempt to wrestle peace from these enemies.

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by polardude1 » Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:07 am

I cannot open it as a nonsubscriber.
Here's the link again.

Perhaps Abbas juts capitulated.


Hamas possibly don't have the financial capability and international backing to initiate a new war at this time, but they may turn a blind eye to Islamic Jihad terrorists launching rockets from Gaza. Some of its new funding is coming from the Gulf States and they appear to be on board with Kerrys attempt to wrestle peace from these enemies.


Hamas does not turn a blind eye to anything. They are in total control of the Gaza Strip. Hamas has rejected new negotiations
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 36,00.html



Thingsseem to be a bit hush hush, conditions for negotiations and all. But you must be privy to the conditions
http://news.yahoo.com/palestinians-us-s ... 13825.html
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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by TerryTeo » Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:32 am

Rainman wrote:I cannot open it as a nonsubscriber.


Here you go then.


Guide for the Perplexed: The EU's new settlement guidelines

Get all the answers to your questions on the new European Union guidelines on the settlements.

European Union's new guidelines for dealing with settlements


Why does the European Union refuse to let its grant money be used on projects located over the Green Line?

The European Union, like most of the world, does not recognize Israeli sovereignty over territories beyond the Green Line and does not view them as part of the State of Israel. The EU, and most of the world, also does not view the activities of Israeli citizens across the Green Line as legal, since under international law a country may not settle its citizens in occupied territory; a country may only temporarily manage such territory on behalf of the local population.


Why does the EU decision also apply to East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, areas where Israeli civil law apply?

While Israel may have instituted its civil law, courts and administration in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, thus basically annexing them to its territory, the international community does not view this as changing these territories' status. A country's unilateral annexation of territory during or following a war is not considered legal under international law. Nowadays, international law forbids the acquisition of territory by force. From the perspective of the international community, these are occupied territories just as much as the West Bank (and Gaza as well, which a significant portion of the world still views as occupied by Israel).

What is the Israeli position regarding the status of these territories?

Israel has not applied Israeli civil law to the territories gained in 1967, except for East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. Thus, even from the perspective of Israeli law the rest of these territories are considered outside Israel's sovereign borders. Israel's claim with respect to the West Bank is that it was captured from Jordan, a country that also was not recognized as sovereign over the West Bank, and that the Geneva Convention that applies to territories conquered by a state from another state, therefore, does not apply to the West Bank. A similar claim was heard with respect to Gaza, which was previously held by Egypt. Due to this reason, from time to time Israeli figures are heard calling the territories “disputed,” but not occupied. Regarding its settlements, Israel claims that states are forbidden by the Geneva Convention to forcibly transfer their citizens to settle occupied territory but citizens may voluntarily move into occupied territory.

So what is the problem with Israel's claim to what it calls Judea and Samaria and what most of the world calls the West Bank?

Almost no one accepts Israel's claims that the Geneva Convention does not apply to the territories gained in 1967 because they did not previously belong to any country or that its citizens can voluntarily choose to move into occupied territory. The International Court of Justice in The Hague also rejected these claims when it ruled on Israel's West Bank separation barrier in 2004. It is clear that because the settlements were established by government edict and with a hefty amount of funds allocated from the state budget, their establishment falls under the definition of a population transfer in contravention of the Geneva Convention.

Israel is trying to have its cake and eat it too. On the one hand, it did not annex the West Bank into its sovereign borders or apply Israeli civil law and administration there. Palestinian residents of the West Bank were not granted Israeli citizenship. Israel enacted military rule in the West Bank and operates by this authority. When, for example, Israel confiscates land for security purposes, it does so under the international laws of occupation (found in the Hague Conventions) that impart specific powers to military commanders in occupied territory. On the other hand, Israel claims that the Geneva Convention does not apply to the West Bank, so the restrictions included in the Geneva Convention do not apply. The result is that Israel sometimes acts in the territories as if they are part of its sovereign territory: establishing Israeli cities, communities and factories and applies Israeli law to Israeli citizens living in this territory. However, Israel simultaneously treats that West Bank as occupied territory, administering it under martial law, with the original inhabitants of the occupied territory, the Palestinians, not given the same status as Israeli citizens. While at the same time Palestinian inhabitants are not given the full rights of residents of an occupied territory, including the provision preventing the occupying power from evicting them in favor of its own citizens. The Europeans are not willing to let grants they earmark for Israel to fund this policy.

Why consider the territories occupied, as they weren’t actually taken from any state to which they belonged?

The civilians living in the West Bank can be considered occupied, because they live under military rule imposed by a state of which they are not citizens, and the fact that the West Bank was not a Palestinian state prior to its present status does not change that fact. There is no doubt that the West Bank is located beyond Israel’s recognized borders, and are under military rule, and because of these facts, the civilian population that lives therein can be considered occupied. In many instances throughout the world, territories have been conquered from states that did not rightfully rule them: Morocco conquered the Western Sahara from Spain; Indonesia conquered East Timor after Portugal. This did not make those territories any less “occupied.” In addition, those two nations also unilaterally annexed the territories in question, and this also did not make them any less occupied. East Timor was eventually granted independence, and Western Sahara is considered occupied to this day. The fact that Israel conquered the West Bank from Jordan and Egypt, nations to which it did not belong, does not matter. What matters is that there is a population, living beyond the borders of a state living under military rule, being denied the basic right of self-rule and self-determination.

Are there really other territories in a similar situation?

Territories considered occupied are almost always shrouded in arguments, and occupying states often deny that the territories are indeed occupied. The International Court in The Hague recently discussed Uganda’s occupation of parts of the Congo. The most debated occupation in recent history was the U.S. and Britain’s incursion into Iraq, but this case differs from the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, in that Israel’s occupation is long term, and includes settlements and a civilian population from the conquering state. Two similar situations that stand out are North Cyprus declared independence, but most of the world still considers it an occupied Turkish territory, rather than an independent state. The European Court of Human rights has frequently referred to North Cyprus as occupied and found Turkey guilty of human rights violations against the Cypriots and Greeks, by not allowing them to access their land. Western Sahara is still considered a territory occupied by Morocco. Back in 1975, the International court in The Hague decided that the population there, called the Sahrawi, should be granted the right to independently decide their own future, a realization of their right to self-determination. A referendum was supposed to be held in Western Sahara, but to this day that has not taken place. East Timor is another similar case, but was granted independence in 2002 following a referendum.

Why does international law forbid nations from settling in occupied territory?

It is fairly clear that if a conquering state begins to settle its population in occupied territory; a situation will be created in which the state relates differently to the occupied population, and to its own citizens, most likely resulting in discrimination against the occupied population. This situation is similar to colonization, or apartheid, and modern international law seeks to prevent it. Israel’s settlement policy did result in the situation which international law set out to prevent.

So the international community does not differentiate between settlements and “outposts?”

No, it does not. Most of the world sees the West Bank as occupied territory, to which the Geneva Convention is applicable, banning an occupying nation from settle its civilian population there.

What about “settlement blocs?”

According to international law, there is no difference. It seems that a future agreement between Israel and the Palestinians will leave settlement blocs in Israeli hands, but as of now, there is no difference. Clearly, it was not within then-President George W. Bush’s authority to change this reality in his famous letter to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, when he wrote that it is unrealistic to expect Israel to return to 1949 borders, based on the facts on the ground.

But in the past, states have conquered territories and made them their own


Modern international law includes numerous rules that forbid use of force, and acquiring land by force, as well as rules that uphold self-determination. International law seeks to do away with old-fashioned colonialism. Today, a state cannot take possession of a territory simply because it conquered it by force. Furthermore, states that do take possession of land by force generally annex those territories, and grant citizenship to their inhabitants (not to mention the darker periods of the past, most of such civilian populations were usually destroyed). Even though unilateral annexation is forbidden by modern international law, in theory annexation is supposed to include equal citizenship and stability. Israel’s presence in the West Bank is far from that, as it is an illegitimate prolonged occupation of a conquered population which was not granted citizenship.

But Israel promised to return land to the Palestinians and "there’s no one to negotiate with"

That claim is completely irrelevant. No matter where the “blame” lies for the fact that there is still no agreement, or the fact that negotiations are stalled, the legality of the settlements remains unchanged. Israel isn't fulfilling its obligations in the West Bank as an occupying state, and that is an issue separate from the peace process and negotiations. As long as Israel occupies the West Bank, it is expected to act according to the laws that govern occupied territories, laws that forbid settlement, and which stipulate that the occupying nation must run the occupied territory only temporarily, and for the benefit of the occupied population. The occupying army must guarantee security in the occupied territory, but not be used for settling populations. It is important to point out that the Oslo Accords, while granting some authorities to the Palestinians, did not alter the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, and did not alter the legality of the settlements.

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by polardude1 » Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:51 am

As was said before, the EU growing balls means taking on China regarding Tibet. I see tthe EU and international court are taking on Turkey, Morocco and Uganda. Another interesting case, Armenia and Nagorno karabakh.
I am sure these are making headlines and are the subject of boycotts and flotillas.
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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by TerryTeo » Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:56 am

Rainman wrote:
Perhaps Abbas juts capitulated.


If that's what you want to think, good for you. Does it make you feel better now?


Rainman wrote:Hamas does not turn a blind eye to anything. They are in total control of the Gaza Strip. Hamas has rejected new negotiations


Hamas can reject negotiations as much as it wants, that in itself won't prevent them from occurring. The ideal scenario will see negotiations reach a point where both the Israeli and Palestinian leaders will return to their people with a proposal for referendum. That referendum is likely to be in the shape of elections. If the agreement reaches a fair balance and provides just solutions, the majorities will accept. We and I include you in this for once, understand the basic requirements for a solution. There will be considerable disagreement on details but the eventual formula will be similar to the Clinton Parameters, with the inclusion of additional recognition of Israel as the Jewish State.

Whether this agreement is reached this decade or next, the only alternative to the two state solution is one state and that is not in Israels Interests.


Rainman wrote:Thingsseem to be a bit hush hush, conditions for negotiations and all. But you must be privy to the conditions


No, not privy, just a keen observer.

Both sides are currently jockeying for position on how they can convince their backers to support negotiations. Kerry has done very well to get to this point but there is a long way to go, with negotiations on negotiations the first opportunity to establish some trust amongst the negotiators. Saeb Erekat is an expert in the Palestinian negotiating position, but I also feel he is an impediment entrenched in delivering what Arafat wanted. I feel the time is right for a more pragmatic Palestinian negotiator to take the reigns, not encumbered by the failures of the past. It would be refreshing to see someone new in the initial negotiations with Livni, who I have faith in as the right person at the right time for Israel. Regrettably I do not see this happening, but I will be very interested to see the make up of both initial negotiating parties.

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by polardude1 » Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:07 am

This is sounding lie a Camp David re-run. If they catch up to the place mark of Camp David and go beyond, getting into the issue of the right of return, I would be impressed. But this path has been tread on before.

I'm sure someone will approach Turkey, Uganda, Morocco, Armenia and China as well.
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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by TerryTeo » Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:21 am

Rainman wrote:As was said before, the EU growing balls means taking on China regarding Tibet. I see tthe EU and international court are taking on Turkey, Morocco and Uganda. Another interesting case, Armenia and Nagorno karabakh.
I am sure these are making headlines and are the subject of boycotts and flotillas.


Pointing at issues elsewhere does not resolve this issue. It becomes an excuse to dismiss action.

The EU is the largest foreign aid donor to the Palestinian Authority and in order to reduce this financial burden as Europe faces economic crises of its own, they want the Palestinians to become self-reliant sooner rather than later. Preventing Israel from expanding its settlements and deepening the Palestinian crisis is its foremost goal in weaning the Palestinians from their purse. They have through the power of threatened economic sanctions the ability to influence Israel's receptiveness to negotiations, similarly they can influence the Palestinians through aid restrictions also.

Europe has been a significant financial backer of the Palestinian Authority since 1993 and it does not want to continue being so much further beyond the 20yrs it has already done so.

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by TerryTeo » Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:30 am

Rainman wrote:This is sounding lie a Camp David re-run. If they catch up to the place mark of Camp David and go beyond, getting into the issue of the right of return, I would be impressed. But this path has been tread on before.



It is nothing like a Camp David re-run, you are a poor student of history, despite being so attached to this chapter of it.

Camp David was to be the be all and end all, with Clinton, Arafat and Barak all at summit. Everything was expected, nothing was delivered. Kerry, Erekat and Livni are deputies and they simply need to get the ball rolling and establish a level of trust that will be conducive to the very difficult years of negotiating ahead. Nothing is expected from their summit, anything is progress.

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by polardude1 » Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:37 am

It is nothing like a Camp David re-run, you are a poor student of history, despite being so attached to this chapter of it.

Same issues being rehashed over an over again.

Camp David was to be the be all and end all, with Clinton, Arafat and Barak all at summit.

after years of on again and off again negotiations.


Pointing at issues elsewhere does not resolve this issue. It becomes an excuse to dismiss action
.

is that what Haaretz is doing.

Are there really other territories in a similar situation?

Territories considered occupied are almost always shrouded in arguments, and occupying states often deny that the territories are indeed occupied. The International Court in The Hague recently discussed Uganda’s occupation of parts of the Congo. The most debated occupation in recent history was the U.S. and Britain’s incursion into Iraq, but this case differs from the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, in that Israel’s occupation is long term, and includes settlements and a civilian population from the conquering state. Two similar situations that stand out are North Cyprus declared independence, but most of the world still considers it an occupied Turkish territory, rather than an independent state. The European Court of Human rights has frequently referred to North Cyprus as occupied and found Turkey guilty of human rights violations against the Cypriots and Greeks, by not allowing them to access their land. Western Sahara is still considered a territory occupied by Morocco. Back in 1975, the International court in The Hague decided that the population there, called the Sahrawi, should be granted the right to independently decide their own future, a realization of their right to self-determination. A referendum was supposed to be held in Western Sahara, but to this day that has not taken place. East Timor is another similar case, but was granted independence in 2002 following a referendum
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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by TerryTeo » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:00 am

Not surprisingly, but unfortunately you have failed to understand the summary provided for your benefit by the Haaretz.

For context, the Haaretz provided examples of other disputes. The existence of these disputes does not neutralise the problems of this one.

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by polardude1 » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:06 am

[quote]For context, the Haaretz provided examples of other disputes. The existence of these disputes does not neutralise the problems of this one./quote]


but which one seems to draw 99% of the attention? Is it that the other occupying countries are not as easy to approach? Where is I/P stand out.
Armenia occupied NK and alll the Azeri residents fled. It is an unresolved conflict and we do not see it in the headlines.
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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by TerryTeo » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:45 am

Exaggeration doesn't help your argument either. It simply highlights your disconnection from the facts.

The IP conflict does not receive anything like the attention you attribute. That said, the festering of this conflict for over 60 years is a good enough reason for it to receive enough attention for it to be resolved sooner rather than later. This is a conflict at the cross roads of three major religions, it has been blamed for the murder of athletes at an Olympic games, international hijackings and amongst other contributing factors that warrant prompt resolution, motivation for terrorists.

Your argument seems to be, peace isn't essential for Israel, fix the rest of the worlds problems first. Why don't you see peace as a priority for Israel?

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by polardude1 » Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:13 pm

The IP conflict does not receive anything like the attention you attribute. That said, the festering of this conflict for over 60 years is a good enough reason for it to receive enough attention for it to be resolved sooner rather than later.


About the same time as the Kashmir issue. I don't read much about other land disputes. Tibet used to get a lot of press, buut things have changed since China developed into the world's second largest economy.

it has been blamed for the murder of athletes at an Olympic games, international hijackings and amongst other contributing factors that warrant prompt resolution, motivation for terrorists.


were they juts "athletes." Were these athletes form several countries or one particular country? Seems like Palestinians had one primary particular target.

So if Tibetans start blowing up Chinese targets, will they get more attention in the UN.
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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by TerryTeo » Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:58 pm

Probably, yes. And lots of media attention to their plight. Is that so hard for you to understand?

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by queenrania » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:39 am

TerryTeo wrote:Probably, yes. And lots of media attention to their plight. Is that so hard for you to understand?


hahaha..the only reason the media pays attention is because it wants to deliver/sell the product the antisemites like you cannot live without.

Why is not the media interested in Moldova, Tibet, Kashmir, Malvinas, Morocco, Karelia (Russia), etc. ?

ANTI-SEMITISM!!!!!

The media sells you the stuff it can make money on.

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by polardude1 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:41 am

Probably, yes. And lots of media attention to their plight. Is that so hard for you to understand?

Plight is not the word I would use. Their l;lost opportunities seem to have gone unnoticed. The Palestinians are trying hard ot get d to the deal they rejected at Camp David.

To bad Tibet iis a lost cause. The were once he rock stars of causes
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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by TerryTeo » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:12 am

There was no deal at Camp David. You've been told and shown this numerous times but again you show that you are not interested in learning or understanding the problems. If you believe there was a deal, explain what the proposed solution regarding refugees was? Your inability to provide an answer stems from the fact that the Israelis (Barak) refused to accept any solution regarding the refugees and consequently the talks collapsed. There will not be a peace agreement without this issue resolved. The Palestinians are fighting for a just solution, not one that is dictated as take it or leave it.

You are critical of the lack of media attention regarding other occupied territories, implying bias against Israel. You have argued those disputes warrant equal if not greater scrutiny. That being the case can you show me examples from the Israeli media where these injustices have been argued? Similarly given your levels of concern for these other occupied territories, can you provide links to your OP's, challenging the situation as it is in these territories?

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by TerryTeo » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:22 am

"This post was made by queenrania who is currently on your ignore list."


Save your invective for discourse with Fleabag, someone you appear to share much in common. Your vitriol adds nothing to this discussion and nothing to this board.

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by phlebas » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:23 am

The EU is to discuss blacklisting Hezbollah today: BBC link

Might happen.

Of course, Hezbollah has already been blacklisted by the Anglo countries ( except NZ ) and the Dutch.
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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by polardude1 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:41 am

here was no deal at Camp David. You've been told and shown this numerous times but again you show that you are not interested in learning or understanding the problems. I

I'm sorry, what was the "proposed solution" for refugees?
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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by TerryTeo » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:11 am

Rainman wrote: I'm sorry, what was the "proposed solution" for refugees?


You have no idea do you? You've proven my point.

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by TerryTeo » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:29 am

Disco wrote:Balls on a European are a relative thing. They don't have the balls to stand up to either of those nations. They don't even have the balls to label Hizbollah a terror organization. To them, it's a political party, that apparently has more legitimacy than an Israeli student who lives in an Israeli neighborhood in East Jerusalem. They have the balls to make righteous proclamations against the Jewish state and no more.


Will Disco climb down now?

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by polardude1 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:22 pm

You have no idea do you? You've proven my point.


Because there was no tangible proposal that Israel could accept.
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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by phlebas » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:38 pm

Terry JHC wrote:Will Disco climb down now?


At the time of writing that, the EU had not labelled Hezbollah as a terrorist organisation, and it is surprising that they did today, as there was quite a lot of opposition to it.

I suspect that there has been horse trading going on behind the scenes, trading off the declaration about the territories with the declaration on Hezbollah.
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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by queenrania » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:30 pm

phlebas wrote:
Terry JHC wrote:Will Disco climb down now?


At the time of writing that, the EU had not labelled Hezbollah as a terrorist organisation, and it is surprising that they did today, as there was quite a lot of opposition to it.

I suspect that there has been horse trading going on behind the scenes, trading off the declaration about the territories with the declaration on Hezbollah.


That ugly continent soaked with human blood and especially the Jewish blood will always be ugly. Europe should be renamed into Auschwitz. You seem to be a good person though. Come to America!

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by phlebas » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:34 pm

You seem to be a good person though. Come to America!


I've only been once, liked it though..

From today's Times:

" Israel welcomed the decision, which follows a week in which Brussels infuriated the Jewish state with a decision to refuse to fund projects in any territories occupied since the six-day war of June 1967.

‘’Finally, after years of deliberations, the claim that Hezbollah is a legitimate political party has rightfully failed,” said Tzipi Livni, the Justice Minister. ‘’Now it is clear to the entire world that Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation”. "
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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by Logg » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:55 pm

phlebas wrote:
Terry JHC wrote:Will Disco climb down now?


At the time of writing that, the EU had not labelled Hezbollah as a terrorist organisation, and it is surprising that they did today, as there was quite a lot of opposition to it.

I suspect that there has been horse trading going on behind the scenes, trading off the declaration about the territories with the declaration on Hezbollah.


Yeah, for sure. It's hard not to notice that.

Doesn't change my opinion one bit. The fact that the EU waited until this long in the game to make this announcement shows just how irrelevant they are. It might have meant something 5 or 10 years ago. Now? It's like declaring that Mubarak should consider sharing power in the Egyptian government.

Not only is it nauseating to have the EU employ lofty rhetoric in their longstanding acceptance of Hizbollah, but it also shows just how politically useless they are. They react long after the fact rather than take a stance when it matters. Once the US, Canada, and other Western nations outlaw Hizbollah, THEN years later the EU will do it. That's not leadership. And it appears that the EU made a point of banning the "military wing" of Hizbollah, while leaving its "political wing" untouched. So, even when they finally get around to making their principaled stance, it's a half-assed equivocation.

That's the EU in a nutshell.

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by Logg » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:56 pm

BTW, seriously, what the fuck is up with this branch? It's buried in the archives, yet its apparently going to be an active ghetto where active posts are placed, again, with no explanation.

Was jono punishing terry?

Based on the deposed feuderator's gleeful mockery, that would seem to be the case.

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by TerryTeo » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:32 pm

Rainman wrote:
You have no idea do you? You've proven my point.


Because there was no tangible proposal that Israel could accept.


So you finally admit after all these years that Israel rejected a solution at Camp David. Not only does it contradict what you wrote earlier, it shatters the myth you have perpetuated for years. Ehud Barak refused to resolve the refugee issue at Camp David, thus the talks collapsed. He had promised that this would be the summit to deliver peace but faledfailed when it came time to deliver. He had turmoil at home with senior supporters stepping down and a vote of no confidence in his government on the eve of departure for Camp David. Taking an issue off the table, as he did with the refugee issue, left Arafat without any ability to sell a deal to his people. The talks ended.

Palestinian frustration was exacerbated by Baraks postponement of territorial withdrawals scheduled prior to the summit, because Barak argued the summit would deliver all. Arafat burned a lot of support from his moderate followers who discovered that Barak had misled everyone all along. Trust in the Israeli left was shot and Palestinian hopes for peace evaporated. This led to a swing towards violence and former Palestinian security officers linked with the terrorists.

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by TerryTeo » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:39 pm

Disco wrote:BTW, seriously, what the fuck is up with this branch? It's buried in the archives, yet its apparently going to be an active ghetto where active posts are placed, again, with no explanation.

Was jono punishing terry?

Based on the deposed feuderator's gleeful mockery, that would seem to be the case.


Jono is a bonehead who signalled it was all about me. Great modding. He lets shit stick to TP but claims due to my bias this got the boot. If he read this thread he'd have an opportunity to learn a little about a complex situation instead he's too busy engaging Queenie on another of its bigoted threads.

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by polardude1 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:51 pm

I said tangible proposal. Right of return does not fit that criteria. Mincing words does not answer questions about the so called refugees. There were no real proposals.

Arafat could not handle peace, a regular George Patton. It was not in his character to be a statesmen. He is no Mandela, a leader who stepped right into the office as a real president. Arafat loves the life in a dusty bunker, so he decided to start an intifada. Suha Arafat, his widow even stated that he planned the 2d intifada.
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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by queenrania » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:55 pm

phlebas wrote:I've only been once, liked it though..


Look, Europe is inherently anti-Semitic. It has a very long history of hatred toward Jews and many other people around the world be that Africa, South America or Asia. Most problematic countries stay problematic. Europe has no future. It is a cowardly place with a lot of cowardly people.

Cannot forget my tour in Santorini. It was miserably hot. We were driven to Thera. The bus was full with French tourists who pretended that English was the language of the Martians and therefore they constantly harassed the guide for conducting the tour in English rather than French. She was visibly annoyed with them but polite and tolerant. It was probably not the first time she was harassed by the French tourists. They were loud and very obnoxious. In Thera we were put on a poorly equipped boat to take us around the bay. One of the stops was a horrid vulcanic island. They told us to swim to it. The heat was intense and abusive and no place to hide. Yet, I decided to stay on the boat. 40-45 minutes later all tourists were swimming back to the boat. Suddenly one French tourist started drowning. Not a single French compatriot attempted to help him. There were 5 Americans in our group. Two Americans jumped into the water and pulled him out. One American administered a CPR while all Europeans from many different countries stood in a circle watching him convulsing in his final moments. None of them offered any assistance. A French man who previously was harassing the guide for speaking English came up to us to thank us for our help. He spoke good English. The boat turned back to Thera. On the way back the captain started fighting with with his subordinates. An ambulance was already waiting at the pier to pick up the dying man. An American pizza delivery truck looked more sophisticated and better equipped. A day later I ran into our guide at a bar. She said he died.

Is that the future of Europe?

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by TerryTeo » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:19 pm

Rainman wrote:I said tangible proposal. Right of return does not fit that criteria. Mincing words does not answer questions about the so called refugees. There were no real proposals.



It is impossible to come up with anything tangible when one party refuses to discuss the topic. Barak point blank refused to address the refugee issue, he saw it as too hot to handle. There was a proposal from Clinton that allowed for family reunification for up to approximately 100,000 Palestinians spread over a decade. Thus Israel would gradually absorb some of those expelled and Arafat was seen as delivering a limited success to his people. International donors led by Japan would contribute toward a compensation fund for those refugees unable to return to Israel and the overwhelming majority of remaining refugees and descendants would be given the opportunity to resettle in the Palestinian State. Barak refused this, in fact as previously stated, he point blank refused to conduct any further negotiations on the refugee issue at Camp David.

Look I'm giving you this information so that you can learn. After years in this forum you seem to have largely failed to move beyond the excuses and myths to appreciate what has actually occured during negotiations. Sticking your fingers in your ears like Barak did serves no purpose other than fuelling ignorance. I know you despise me and I know you disagree with everything that I write, but you are disagreeing for arguments sake not because you know better.

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by TerryTeo » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:33 pm

Rainman wrote:
Arafat could not handle peace, a regular George Patton. It was not in his character to be a statesmen. He is no Mandela, a leader who stepped right into the office as a real president. Arafat loves the life in a dusty bunker, so he decided to start an intifada. Suha Arafat, his widow even stated that he planned the 2d intifada.


Arafat never had peace to handle. Mandela stepped in to office as the President of one nation, where blacks had equality through democracy. Arafat fought to obtain equality and though his methods weren't succesful, or his character anything near that of Mandelas, Mandela would have fought on to his death demanding for his people what Arafat did, if the oppressors hadn't of recognised for themselves the injustice of the situation. Thats the big difference. Many Israelis and their supporters fail to accept there is any injustice in this case, if any, they argue its against them.

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by polardude1 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:47 am

It is impossible to come up with anything tangible when one party refuses to discuss the topic. Barak point blank refused to address the refugee issue, he saw it as too hot to handle.

were yu at Camp David and take minutes.


here was a proposal from Clinton that allowed for family reunification for up to approximately 100,000 Palestinians spread over a decade. Thus Israel would gradually absorb some of those expelled and Arafat was seen as delivering a limited success to his people. International donors led by Japan would contribute toward a compensation fund for those refugees unable to return to Israel and the overwhelming majority of remaining refugees and descendants would be given the opportunity to resettle in the Palestinian State. Barak refused this, in fact as previously stated, he point blank refused to conduct any further negotiations on the refugee issue at Camp David.


Again, who do you know what exactly was discussed in private conversation? And international donors. had Clinton worked this out ahead of time?

Thats the big difference. Many Israelis and their supporters fail to accept there is any injustice in this case, if any, they argue its against them.


Israel is not SA. ANd there is nothing to apologize for. Israel did not initiate the war in 1948. The I/P experience has far more in common with the partition of India. War and refugees. We no longer here about refugees anymore. Hm.. Has India or Pakistan mentioned injustices?

The Cairo born Arafat has nothing in common with Mandela. Mandela was far more of a principled person and had all the makings of a good statesmen. Arafat had none of those qualities. Him and his Fatah cronies stole billions of aide dollars. The EU even picked up on that. There wa no infrastructure development equal to the money given. Suha Arafat is living like a queen in Paris. Please do high that rat in high esteem he does not have it coming to him.

Yu se, you want Israel to apologize for its very existence. This is what drives every single one of your post. Palestinians are victims...of he own screwed up leadership. Abbas knows, why don't you know?
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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by TerryTeo » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:09 am

Rainman wrote:
Again, who do you know what exactly was discussed in private conversation? And international donors. had Clinton worked this out ahead of time?


I know what I know because I care to know. When given the opportunity to learn you don't. Ignorance enjoys your company.


Israel’s Rights as a Nation-State in International Diplomacy wrote:In July 2000, immediately after the Camp David summit, it was President Bill Clinton who first introduced the notion of an international fund...


You can read more of the transcript here, including reference to Japan as a major donor.


Rainman wrote:Israel is not SA...


You're the idiot who introduced Mandela and South Africa, comparing Arafat and the Palestinian predicament.

Rainman wrote:Yu se, you want Israel to apologize for its very existence. This is what drives every single one of your post.


Wrong again, but you've already established your ignorance.

I have responded to you questions, not liking my answers is no reason for you to get shitty.

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by TerryTeo » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:27 am

More progress


Catherine Ashton: Israeli settlement products to be labeled in EU by end of 2013

Letter obtained by Haaretz shows EU foreign policy chief is seeking to recruit support from all relevant commissioners for West Bank labeling guidelines.

European Union foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton is seeking to draft comprehensive guidelines on labeling settlement products by the end of this year, she told several senior EU officials last week.

She made the comment in a letter - a copy of which has been obtained by Haaretz - sent on July 8 to European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso and the seven commissioners responsible for justice, industry, consumer protection, agriculture, taxation, trade and internal market. The commission is the EU's executive arm.

The letter's goal was to recruit support from all the relevant commissioners for issuing guidelines on labeling settlement products that would apply to all 28 EU member states. Ashton said she would need the commissioners' help and political backing, and asked each of them to instruct their staffs to work on the issue.

Her effort comes on the heels of a new EU directive that prohibits funding, investing in or awarding grants and prizes to entities with activities in the settlements. This directive also said that any new agreements between Israel and the European Union should include a provision stating that Jewish communities in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights are not part of Israel, and hence not covered by the agreement...

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Re: The EU grows some balls...

Post by phlebas » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:27 am

A lot of products are already labelled apparently, agricultural and cosmetics mainly. Doesn't stop the 230 million euros of goods imported to the EU from settlements per year.

Your still a Jew hating cunt, btw Terry.
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