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Black/Mixed Race

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:39 am
by milton
Is there a particular reason Obama is constantly referred to as "black"?

I believe the correct term is "mixed-race", and surely represents a very real and physical celebration of the smashing down of historic prejudicial boundaries, and the coming together of different races and cultures.
In that, and in the support of the American people, he represents a major step forward in ending bigotry and demonstrating that by coming together we can reach the grandest heights possible.

Sadly I have some concerns that across much of our media, and indeed within much unspoken public opinion, the term mixed-race and what it entails still holds some ancient taboo. Obama's election gives us the best chance ever to put such a tiresome prejudice down forever.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:56 am
by milton
If I thought people scoped out opinion on here..

Besides, RE the 1962 bit - I consider it as old-fashioned to consider that someone should be thought of in terms of being a "black man" as much as a "mixed-race man".

Why is any distiction required? The fact that it is used shows how far we still have to go.

And Obama presents himself in the way his advisors advise him to. If my concern is correct, and it is still an oft-unspoken taboo, his advisors will have told him to strongly avoid that line.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:59 am
by tph24601
most blacks in US are "mixed race" in some way, since nearly all of them are lighter skinned than africans....

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:00 pm
by misanthrope
People are getting shouted at because some of the posts seem to imply that it isn't much of an accomplishment what Obama has done.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:19 pm
by milton
tph24601 wrote:most blacks in US are "mixed race" in some way, since nearly all of them are lighter skinned than africans....

I think most of us are mixed race to some degree, aren't we?

But my point is simply that if we accept that it's okay to refer to someone as "first Black President", and I'm not sure that it is, then it should certainly be okay to do the same with the term "mixed-race".

I don't accept that it's any more retrograde a term than the distictions between race we already use (as stated, I personally would rather they weren't used, but I accept that ain't about to happen).

One aspect of Obama's election is that it sets a benchmark from which we can see positivity. We know of the prejudice that has exists, and still continues in some, and we celebrate that such prejudice appears to be being beaten.
Well, I know a few folk that are the product of "mixed-marriages", I'm sure many of you do, and they've experienced prejudice very specific to that.
So I don't consider for a second that being "mixed-race" is anything that shouldn't be discussed or indeed celebrated as much as anything else.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:23 pm
by tph24601
But my point is simply that if we accept that it's okay to refer to someone as "first Black President", and I'm not sure that it is, then it should certainly be okay to do the same with the term "mixed-race".

go right ahead, who is stopping you?

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:30 pm
by milton
No-one. But the press don't seem to want to.

Why would they wish to avoid something that is accurate? Is it because they are prejudiced against the right of people to marry whoever they please?

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:38 pm
by Collateral Knowledge
The presenter on CNN kept referring to him both as African American and 'bi-racial', but I think she's British. She's mixed too.

Janie, it was the term 'mulatto' that's objectionable, not the acknowledgement that Obama's parentage is black and white, surely? I think Milton's points are good.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:39 pm
by tph24601
milton wrote:
Is it because they are prejudiced against the right of people to marry whoever they please?

urrr, yeah, that's it

you finally uncovered this media conspiracy, the media are not liberal, they are actually all racists trying to prevent race mixing...

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:05 pm
by milton
Cheers tph :lol:
I put it badly - forget whether the media are prejudiced. They are an extension of society in their outlook. If they consider that society contains this ongoing prejudice, then they will speak accordingly.

Unless you have a better idea why they don't refer to something very simple in a factual manner?

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:10 pm
by foolsprogress
janieblack wrote:As someone said, he presents himself as a black man, so he is a black man.

I think that pretty much the beginning and end of it.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:53 pm
by milton
foolsprogress wrote:
janieblack wrote:As someone said, he presents himself as a black man, so he is a black man.

I think that pretty much the beginning and end of it.

Do you?

Well I say I'm the Queen of Sheba. Does that make it so?

He presents himself the way any politician in his position does - the way he's advised is best to.

One parent is black, one is white. I highly doubt that he has more "pride" in one side of his family than the other. Even thinking in these terms leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:01 pm
by flojin
People of mixed parentage reserve the right to identify themselves as they please. They may identify with one ethnic heritage for part of their lives, and then another for a different part, or both, or neither.

In the US right now, the progressive stance is to respect how someone chooses to identify and describe them as they describe themselves. So, if Obama calls himself black, it's reasonable to call him black as well. To do otherwise is needlessly contentious and suspect.

If you feel a need for absolute accuracy in racial categorization, you may find some comfort in the old way that race was classified in the US. Words like "Quadroon, octoroon, quintroon, mestee, and hexadecaroon" can help you figure out exactly how black a mixed race person is. I recommend you use these terms only with like-minded friends or else you'll find yourself quite alienated.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:23 pm
by milton
flojin wrote:People of mixed parentage reserve the right to identify themselves as they please. They may identify with one ethnic heritage for part of their lives, and then another for a different part, or both, or neither.

In the US right now, the progressive stance is to respect how someone chooses to identify and describe them as they describe themselves. So, if Obama calls himself black, it's reasonable to call him black as well. To do otherwise is needlessly contentious and suspect.

If you feel a need for absolute accuracy in racial categorization, you may find some comfort in the old way that race was classified in the US. Words like "Quadroon, octoroon, quintroon, mestee, and hexadecaroon" can help you figure out exactly how black a mixed race person is. I recommend you use these terms only with like-minded friends or else you'll find yourself quite alienated.

With regret, as it rather spoils your delightfully unhelpful, and supercillious little rant there, my personal preference would be that we didn't bother to refer to race at all. My firends are of like mind. Maybe you are different?

However, I'm not blind to the fact that it is still considered enough of a factor in our (hopefully developing beyond this) society that is is referred to. We talk about the fact that it shows how far we've come that "a black man" is president.

My point, which you rather obtusely missed, is that we do not seem to have come as far as I'd like, because the union of a mixed coupling and its progeny is still something it is clear that most of our media woiuld prefer to skirt around. Maybe they are all just doing so because they respect the decision Obama has made in how he presents himself... I have a fear, however, that at least partly the old prejudices remain.

And all of that is an entirely different issue to the fact that Obama can indeed refer to himself as black if he so wishes.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:37 pm
by tph24601
....because the union of a mixed coupling and its progeny is still something it is clear that most of our media woiuld prefer to skirt around.

yeah OK, if that makes you feel better, go with that.....

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:39 pm
by blueeyes_austin
tph24601 wrote:most blacks in US are "mixed race" in some way, since nearly all of them are lighter skinned than africans....


+1

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:40 pm
by blueeyes_austin
flojin wrote:People of mixed parentage reserve the right to identify themselves as they please. They may identify with one ethnic heritage for part of their lives, and then another for a different part, or both, or neither.


They may deserve the right, but a kid who has one black parent will look sufficiently "black" that most people will assume he or she is black.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:42 pm
by milton
tph24601 wrote:
....because the union of a mixed coupling and its progeny is still something it is clear that most of our media woiuld prefer to skirt around.

yeah OK, if that makes you feel better, go with that.....

...and on the second response tph goes all-out to impart his greater wisdom on the subject.

Tell you what, mate, after that reasoned retort, I've totally changed my perspective.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:49 pm
by milton
blueeyes_austin wrote:
tph24601 wrote:most blacks in US are "mixed race" in some way, since nearly all of them are lighter skinned than africans....


+1

That still involves us giving a shit about skin colour though.

There are a hell of a lot of people who look "white" and "black" who are mixed race somewhere down the line.
Why should we care? And given that we've established that we do care enough to mention skin colour, why aren't we celebrating that it's mixed?

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:51 pm
by tph24601
Why should we care?

well, you are the one who started this thread....

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:56 pm
by section8
This is getting tedious.

Re: Black/Mixed Race

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:04 pm
by ToadBrother
milton wrote:Is there a particular reason Obama is constantly referred to as "black"?

I believe the correct term is "mixed-race", and surely represents a very real and physical celebration of the smashing down of historic prejudicial boundaries, and the coming together of different races and cultures.
In that, and in the support of the American people, he represents a major step forward in ending bigotry and demonstrating that by coming together we can reach the grandest heights possible.

That would apply to the large majority of African Americans who, as I recall from various genetic tests, are about 25% European. In fact, it was quite a bit of a problem for molecular biologists trying to trace the origins of various populations. Black Americans are too "white" to give a good sampling of Africa's genetic makeup.

Sadly I have some concerns that across much of our media, and indeed within much unspoken public opinion, the term mixed-race and what it entails still holds some ancient taboo. Obama's election gives us the best chance ever to put such a tiresome prejudice down forever.


He's African American. What more do you want?

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:15 pm
by milton
tph24601 wrote:
Why should we care?

well, you are the one who started this thread....

I care that we celebrate a supposed nail in the coffin of racism without the majority of the media being able to celebrate the mixing of races, yes.

Thank-you for another of your valuable contributions, btw.

Re: Black/Mixed Race

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:22 pm
by milton
ToadBrother wrote:
milton wrote:Is there a particular reason Obama is constantly referred to as "black"?

I believe the correct term is "mixed-race", and surely represents a very real and physical celebration of the smashing down of historic prejudicial boundaries, and the coming together of different races and cultures.
In that, and in the support of the American people, he represents a major step forward in ending bigotry and demonstrating that by coming together we can reach the grandest heights possible.


That would apply to the large majority of African Americans who, as I recall from various genetic tests, are about 25% European. In fact, it was quite a bit of a problem for molecular biologists trying to trace the origins of various populations. Black Americans are too "white" to give a good sampling of Africa's genetic makeup.

True. And as I said, most of us will have some sort of mix anyway.
But there isn't anything too complicated about saying 1 white parent + 1 black parent = one mixed-race kid.
Sadly I have some concerns that across much of our media, and indeed within much unspoken public opinion, the term mixed-race and what it entails still holds some ancient taboo. Obama's election gives us the best chance ever to put such a tiresome prejudice down forever.


He's African American. What more do you want?

That is a good term, human's even better.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:23 pm
by tph24601
I care that we celebrate a supposed nail in the coffin of racism...

who is celebrating the end of racism? you and who else?

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:24 pm
by ToadBrother
milton wrote:
tph24601 wrote:
Why should we care?

well, you are the one who started this thread....

I care that we celebrate a supposed nail in the coffin of racism without the majority of the media being able to celebrate the mixing of races, yes.

Thank-you for another of your valuable contributions, btw.


Except that what your complaining about here applies to almost all African Americans, save for what I would suspect is a very small fraction who are not the descendants of slaves. You might as well say, short of recent immigrants from sub-Saharan African countries, that there's no such thing as African American, and yet there is, because it's not just simply a matter of who were parents were, it is a sub-culture that's not entirely exclusive. Obama clearly identified from an early age with African American culture, and I see no reason whatsoever not to call him an African American.

I know what you're trying to say here, and I think you've got a point, that in many respects Obama represents what America should become, a place where there are no sharp lines between race and ethnicity. I once worked for a guy who told me the surest way to end racism would be to encourage mixed marriages. A bigot may be able to hate an anonymous black guy, but if it's his grandchild, there's a decent chance he might reconsider his views on the matter.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:26 pm
by ToadBrother
milton wrote:
tph24601 wrote:
Why should we care?

well, you are the one who started this thread....

I care that we celebrate a supposed nail in the coffin of racism without the majority of the media being able to celebrate the mixing of races, yes.

Thank-you for another of your valuable contributions, btw.


Everyone knows his parentage and heritage. In fact, at one point, I recall some Republican mouthpieces suggesting that because Obama's roots were in Kenya, that he wasn't the right kind of black guy.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:27 pm
by salmonid
Great thread! I agree with Milton here, why should we focus on race. We're all the human race.

Man.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:33 pm
by milton
tph24601 wrote:
I care that we celebrate a supposed nail in the coffin of racism...

who is celebrating the end of racism? you and who else?


Highlighted seeing as how you seem to be endeavouring to be as obtuse as possible today. Fuck knows why.

If I'd said "celebrating the final nail in the coffin of racism" than that's what we'd be celebrating.
Saying "a nail in the coffin of racism" means that we're celebrating a benchmark (hopefully) in the infinite struggle to get rid of racism. It's a long road.

Any more pedantic shite you want to go for, or are you spent yet?

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:34 pm
by milton
ToadBrother wrote:
milton wrote:
tph24601 wrote:
Why should we care?

well, you are the one who started this thread....

I care that we celebrate a supposed nail in the coffin of racism without the majority of the media being able to celebrate the mixing of races, yes.

Thank-you for another of your valuable contributions, btw.


Except that what your complaining about here applies to almost all African Americans, save for what I would suspect is a very small fraction who are not the descendants of slaves. You might as well say, short of recent immigrants from sub-Saharan African countries, that there's no such thing as African American, and yet there is, because it's not just simply a matter of who were parents were, it is a sub-culture that's not entirely exclusive. Obama clearly identified from an early age with African American culture, and I see no reason whatsoever not to call him an African American.

I know what you're trying to say here, and I think you've got a point, that in many respects Obama represents what America should become, a place where there are no sharp lines between race and ethnicity. I once worked for a guy who told me the surest way to end racism would be to encourage mixed marriages. A bigot may be able to hate an anonymous black guy, but if it's his grandchild, there's a decent chance he might reconsider his views on the matter.

I concur entirely.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:47 pm
by tph24601
milton wrote:
Highlighted seeing as how you seem to be endeavouring to be as obtuse as possible today. Fuck knows why.

milton is calling other people obtuse

funny stuff...

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:49 pm
by milton
tph24601 wrote:
milton wrote:
Highlighted seeing as how you seem to be endeavouring to be as obtuse as possible today. Fuck knows why.

milton is calling other people obtuse

funny stuff...

Hilarious stuff.

What was the last thing I said that was half as obtuse as your chat in this thread?

Seeing as its clearly a principle feature of mine, it should take you a second to link a post, no more.

Either that, or you're talking shit. And being a twat.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:46 pm
by mali
Referring to him as mixed race is idiotic. The brotha is a black man. Deal wit it. Not so long ago he would have been chased thru the cotton fields for being an uppity nigger and not an uppity mixed race guy.

We are coming to get you..................................................and you.

Payback time 8)

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:55 pm
by Capitolhill
salmonid wrote:Great thread! I agree with Milton here, why should we focus on race. We're all the human race.

Man.


Well said, bro. This thread is probably blowing a lot of cat's minds.

You know, we ALL come from Africa.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:51 pm
by milton
mali wrote:Referring to him as mixed race is idiotic. The brotha is a black man. Deal wit it. Not so long ago he would have been chased thru the cotton fields for being an uppity nigger and not an uppity mixed race guy.

We are coming to get you..................................................and you.

Payback time 8)

Will Obama be killing his mother's side of the family in this charming race-war of yours?

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:54 pm
by milton
Capitolhill wrote:
salmonid wrote:Great thread! I agree with Milton here, why should we focus on race. We're all the human race.

Man.


Well said, bro. This thread is probably blowing a lot of cat's minds.

You know, we ALL come from Africa.

8)

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:00 pm
by mali
milton wrote:
mali wrote:Referring to him as mixed race is idiotic. The brotha is a black man. Deal wit it. Not so long ago he would have been chased thru the cotton fields for being an uppity nigger and not an uppity mixed race guy.

We are coming to get you..................................................and you.

Payback time 8)

Will Obama be killing his mother's side of the family in this charming race-war of yours?


Who on earth has even suggested a race war? Why do crackers make such wild assumptions when it comes to blacks?

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:08 pm
by muthafunky
Is there anyone on Earth who doesn't have ancestors of different races?

Obama refers to himself as black, but I guess some whiteys object to that.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:09 pm
by milton
mali wrote:
milton wrote:
mali wrote:Referring to him as mixed race is idiotic. The brotha is a black man. Deal wit it. Not so long ago he would have been chased thru the cotton fields for being an uppity nigger and not an uppity mixed race guy.

We are coming to get you..................................................and you.

Payback time
8)

Will Obama be killing his mother's side of the family in this charming race-war of yours?


Who on earth has even suggested a race war? Why do crackers make such wild assumptions when it comes to blacks?

:roll:

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:16 pm
by mali
milton wrote:
mali wrote:
milton wrote:
mali wrote:Referring to him as mixed race is idiotic. The brotha is a black man. Deal wit it. Not so long ago he would have been chased thru the cotton fields for being an uppity nigger and not an uppity mixed race guy.

We are coming to get you..................................................and you.

Payback time
8)

Will Obama be killing his mother's side of the family in this charming race-war of yours?


Who on earth has even suggested a race war? Why do crackers make such wild assumptions when it comes to blacks?

:roll:


Well? Who suggested a race war?

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:24 pm
by milton
So when you "get" people, it's going to be in a non-confrontational manner?

Anyway, fuck off, mali. You said you were leaving, and we can do without you smearing the place in attention-seeking shit as you go.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:26 pm
by mali
milton wrote:So when you "get" people, it's going to be in a non-confrontational manner?

Anyway, fuck off, mali. You said you were leaving, and we can do without you smearing the place in attention-seeking shit as you go.


We both are in a confrontation now. I see no threats of violence or 'war'. Only one person is using foul language also and being threatening. What a muppet.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:30 pm
by milton
mali wrote:
milton wrote:So when you "get" people, it's going to be in a non-confrontational manner?

Anyway, fuck off, mali. You said you were leaving, and we can do without you smearing the place in attention-seeking shit as you go.


We both are in a confrontation now. I see no threats of violence or 'war'. Only one person is using foul language also and being threatening. What a muppet.

Here's some more - troll elsewhere, twat.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:58 pm
by CatScanMan
I think he looks far more white than black.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:07 pm
by mali
milton wrote:
mali wrote:
milton wrote:So when you "get" people, it's going to be in a non-confrontational manner?

Anyway, fuck off, mali. You said you were leaving, and we can do without you smearing the place in attention-seeking shit as you go.


We both are in a confrontation now. I see no threats of violence or 'war'. Only one person is using foul language also and being threatening. What a muppet.

Here's some more - troll elsewhere, twat.


There you go. Typical knee jerk reaction. It reminds me of transcripts I read of Bantu Steve Biko's trial. Crackers assume too much when it comes to blacks. Probably some form of pseudo superiority going on. Pillock. You even try and take away the glory of a black man by denying him his blackness. So sad...but not surprising.

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:05 am
by Goldfinch
We as whites seem to categorize a person as black if they show any amount of black characteristics. However, I am led to believe that there is a great deal of prejudice in the black community dealing with degrees of black skin color. The blacker a person is the lower they are considered. This attitude seems to prevail in South American countries as well. We have a ways to go but we have made a hell of a quantum jump with this election.

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:40 pm
by Dagny
milton wrote:If I thought people scoped out opinion on here..

Besides, RE the 1962 bit - I consider it as old-fashioned to consider that someone should be thought of in terms of being a "black man" as much as a "mixed-race man".

Why is any distiction required? The fact that it is used shows how far we still have to go.

And Obama presents himself in the way his advisors advise him to. If my concern is correct, and it is still an oft-unspoken taboo, his advisors will have told him to strongly avoid that line.


As a biracial person, he has a thin line to walk with regards to acceptance. Right now he's balancing between both but others are not so lucky. Look at what happened to Tiger Woods who tried to embrace all parts.

Re: Black/Mixed Race

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:07 am
by Agent009
Hellos