Travelers Century Club.

We're travelers here. Tourists can be found on that other board.
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simon_in_exile
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by simon_in_exile » Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:12 am

Goldie wrote:
scottyheather wrote:Of course Scotland's a country just as England is - or is England not a country either.

The reason Scotland (and England) don't have their own passports or military is because they are both (along with Wales and N.Ireland) part of the UK and therefore have a BRITISH passport/military.


Of course England isn't a country, it's part of the UK. Unless Kansas and Saskatchewan and New South Wales are countries.

England is a country - duh. But it isn't an independent state.
I'm assuming you're trolling by the way - you seem too smart to be genuinely writing that.
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by Goldie » Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:11 am

scottyheather wrote:Kansas, Saskachewan, NSW are all states in larger countries. You can't compare these to the countries which comprise the UK.


Of course you can, they're all effectively the same thing. (at least now they are, post Blair)

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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by ben_hanscombe » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:21 am

simon_in_exile wrote:I'm assuming you're trolling by the way - you seem too smart to be genuinely writing that.

There's a certain subset of North Americans who never, ever get tired of this particular troll. It's almost an article of faith for them.
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by simon_in_exile » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:26 am

Yep - I'm aware... On which note it's about time for a tipping thread...
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by cuchulainn » Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:19 pm

scottyheather wrote:Of course Scotland's a country just as England is - or is England not a country either.

The reason Scotland (and England) don't have their own passports or military is because they are both (along with Wales and N.Ireland) part of the UK and therefore have a BRITISH passport/military.


Scotland is a province of Britain. Or a state. It doesn't have its own head of state, its own head of government- it is just like a state. It's like Michigan or South Dakota or Queensland if you prefer.

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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by cuchulainn » Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:20 pm

scottyheather wrote:Of course Scotland's a country just as England is - or is England not a country either.

The reason Scotland (and England) don't have their own passports or military is because they are both (along with Wales and N.Ireland) part of the UK and therefore have a BRITISH passport/military.


Scotland is a province of Britain. Or a state. It doesn't have its own head of state, its own head of government- it is just like a state. It's like Michigan or South Dakota or Queensland if you prefer.

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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by thoughtpolice » Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:51 pm

Of course Scotland's a country just as England is - or is England not a country either.


Now you are getting the idea, England is not a country in the eyes of the world.
But I acknowledge the viewpoint of the Brits on this- they clearly want to abandon any association with a failed or at least failing state (aka country) like the UK. Can't say I blame them.
It's like puppy love, it is ultimately silly but nonetheless very important to the puppy.

So what do you say PoliStew- should we let the Scots, Welsh, English claim each as a sovereign nation?

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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by scottyheather » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:06 am

Ben and Simon - yep you are right - there's definitely a subset of trolls on here who obviously like to open their mouths without knowing what they are talking about. I'll leave it at that.

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Travelers Century Club.

Post by cuchulainn » Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:49 am

When I see a Scottish passport, I will change my mind. It is cute that Britons regard their provinces as nation-states, because nobody else does.

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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by ben_hanscombe » Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:25 am

I've never seen anyone claim that England is a nation state.
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by cuchulainn » Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:31 am

How is England not a province?

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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by northern_goddess » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:31 pm

Saskatchewan is a province.
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by Goldie » Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:10 pm

ben_hanscombe wrote:
simon_in_exile wrote:I'm assuming you're trolling by the way - you seem too smart to be genuinely writing that.

There's a certain subset of North Americans who never, ever get tired of this particular troll. It's almost an article of faith for them.


I have every confidence that if Americans did something so odd as to insist Texas was a country, the British here would never tire of pointing out their retardation.

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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by cuchulainn » Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:59 pm

Goldie wrote:
ben_hanscombe wrote:
simon_in_exile wrote:I'm assuming you're trolling by the way - you seem too smart to be genuinely writing that.

There's a certain subset of North Americans who never, ever get tired of this particular troll. It's almost an article of faith for them.


I have every confidence that if Americans did something so odd as to insist Texas was a country, the British here would never tire of pointing out their retardation.


Winner!!!

England is a province.

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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by leela » Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:38 pm

Is Scotland a country?

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the full name of the country. Scotland is a kingdom within the United Kingdom (UK), and forms part of Britain (the largest island) and Great Britain (which includes the Scottish islands).

As the UK has no written constitution in the usual sense, constitutional terminology is fraught with difficulties of interpretation and it is common usage nowadays to describe the four constituent parts of the UK (Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland) as “countries”.


According to the Scotish Parliament.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/help/17032.aspx
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by Lost Soul » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:03 am

England is a country - duh.

England doesn't even have its own parliament.

Whereas all 50 states do.
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by Goldie » Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:02 am

Lost Soul wrote:
England is a country - duh.

England doesn't even have its own parliament.

Whereas all 50 states do.


Well that's the funniest thing about the whole country thing. Scotland, Wales and N Ireland have only have there own governments since Blair (not England though.) Before then they didn't have as much autonomy as any province or state. Even now I don't think they have as much power as provinces or states.

But if we can use the language in such strange fashion, it might be a way to solve the Quebec separatist issue, we'll just tell them they're not a province anymore, they're a country. Of course that didn't actually work with the Scottish separatists.

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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by simon_in_exile » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:04 pm

Goldie wrote:
ben_hanscombe wrote:
simon_in_exile wrote:I'm assuming you're trolling by the way - you seem too smart to be genuinely writing that.

There's a certain subset of North Americans who never, ever get tired of this particular troll. It's almost an article of faith for them.


I have every confidence that if Americans did something so odd as to insist Texas was a country, the British here would never tire of pointing out their retardation.

... because it's a actually a state and a former republic?
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by eric84 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:19 pm

I do love this conceit about using 'countries' to describe sub national entities in the UK.
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by simon_in_exile » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:59 pm

eric84 wrote:I do love this conceit about using 'countries' to describe sub national entities in the UK.

You mean non-sovereign entities? Yep - perfectly normal.
Next thing you know, someone will be claiming Texas isn't a state because it's not a sovereign entity like other independent states. It's about time we called that place the UPA - United Provinces of America. Which is "One Nation, Under God"... and part of the United Nations... but then the Canadian First Nations aren't independent states, or even countries, nor even provinces. We need a new name for them too - Maybe First Municipalities (or Premiers Arrondissements to suit Celine Dion's bunch) has a catchy ring to it, don't you think? :)
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by Lincoln » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:52 am

I just crossed the border into Belize today,country number 80,who wants to suck my balls?

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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by Redsales » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:28 pm

Judi said:
I am married to one of those guys.


At first I thought you meant you were married to one of those rickshaw drivers biking the tourists.
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by matt_melb » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:00 am

JudiK, has your husband already been to Brunei? That would be another easy one to knock off on the way back from Bali.

I like to count, and to make sure that the number at least equals my age. I have my own criteria, which include:
- transit stops don't count, but apart from that a short visit is enough, eg I say I've 'been to Germany' even though it was only a day trip from Austria to see Mad King Ludwig's castle
- a 'country' definition that's somewhere between TCC at one extreme, and sovereign state at the other
- so I don't count the constituent countries of the UK (because though they're called countries, they have less sovereignty than Australian or US states)
- but I do count Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan as separate countries from China (separate currency, separate passports, you can't fly there from the domestic terminal of a Chinese airport)
- if I country I've visited later splits into separate countries, I can count both bits if I visited them both - eg I went to both Prague and Bratislava when they were in Czechoslovakia, and now they're in separate countries I can count them as two
- if I visited two countries that later unified, I'd have to reduce my count, but this hasn't happened yet.

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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by judik » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:51 am

JudiK, has your husband already been to Brunei? That would be another easy one to knock off on the way back from Bali

Hahaha
We did think about that briefly but decided on Malaysia
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by Goldie » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:56 am

matt_melb wrote:I like to count, and to make sure that the number at least equals my age. I have my own criteria, which include:
- transit stops don't count, but apart from that a short visit is enough, eg I say I've 'been to Germany' even though it was only a day trip from Austria to see Mad King Ludwig's castle
- a 'country' definition that's somewhere between TCC at one extreme, and sovereign state at the other
- so I don't count the constituent countries of the UK (because though they're called countries, they have less sovereignty than Australian or US states)
- but I do count Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan as separate countries from China (separate currency, separate passports, you can't fly there from the domestic terminal of a Chinese airport)
- if I country I've visited later splits into separate countries, I can count both bits if I visited them both - eg I went to both Prague and Bratislava when they were in Czechoslovakia, and now they're in separate countries I can count them as two
- if I visited two countries that later unified, I'd have to reduce my count, but this hasn't happened yet.


Did I write that? I don't remember doing it but it sure seems like it.

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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by Electrolyte » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:26 pm

I've been to Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic, and Slovakia. How many is that?

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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by i_have_shiny_shoes » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:36 pm

I don't know how many times this argument has been rehashed, but a nation and/or country is not necessarily synonymous with a sovereign state. The UK is the sovereign state, with England, Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland the union's constituent countries, as the Library of Congress helpfully notes:

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the collective name of four countries, England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The four separate countries were united under a single Parliament through a series of Acts of Union. The United Kingdom has recently undergone a period of devolution with the creation of the Scottish Parliament, the National Assembly for Wales, and the Northern Ireland Assembly that have the authority to legislate in defined areas.


Moreover, comparisons with states within the US are bunk, which is a federation, not a unitary state like the UK.
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by judik » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:57 pm

Electrolyte wrote:I've been to Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic, and Slovakia. How many is that?

Or Yugoslavia
Are you allowed to go back and change your count?
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by Scrubb » Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:41 pm

With their funky list, I'm at 69 but if you go by the normal list of countries, it's just over 50. If using their rules (that a plane transfer counts, or being in their port, or taking a train through without stopping) I'd have probably a dozen more.

I originally counted because my friend's husband wanted to see which of us had been to more countries.
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by Lost Soul » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:42 am

i_have_shiny_shoes wrote:I don't know how many times this argument has been rehashed, but a nation and/or country is not necessarily synonymous with a sovereign state. The UK is the sovereign state, with England, Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland the union's constituent countries, as the Library of Congress helpfully notes:

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the collective name of four countries, England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The four separate countries were united under a single Parliament through a series of Acts of Union. The United Kingdom has recently undergone a period of devolution with the creation of the Scottish Parliament, the National Assembly for Wales, and the Northern Ireland Assembly that have the authority to legislate in defined areas.


Moreover, comparisons with states within the US are bunk, which is a federation, not a unitary state like the UK.

I saw an opening and I took it. And I knew I would be answering to you.

Nevertheless it seems England is giving up too much, like a healthy economy and a Parliament, in order to subsidize the l00sers in the Celtic fringe. Fuck em, starting with the Scots.
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by matt_melb » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:30 am

i_have_shiny_shoes wrote:I don't know how many times this argument has been rehashed, but a nation and/or country is not necessarily synonymous with a sovereign state. The UK is the sovereign state, with England, Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland the union's constituent countries.


This is true, but 'country' is used in the UK for constituent parts of a sovereign nation that have less sovereignty than the states/provinces of the US, Canada or Australia. So it's a rather idiosyncratic usage. As we'd expect from the Brits, of course.

If you want to have a definition of 'country', it has to have two parts. 'Country' means:
(a) a sovereign state, or an area that has some but not all the elements of sovereignty; or
(b) in the UK, one of the component parts of a sovereign state (which, in other countries, would be called 'state', 'province', 'canton', etc).

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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by simon_in_exile » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:32 pm

Matt - like I explained above, that also applies to states and nations. Nothing strange or controversial about it really.
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by eric84 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:06 pm

simon_in_exile wrote:
eric84 wrote:I do love this conceit about using 'countries' to describe sub national entities in the UK.

You mean non-sovereign entities? Yep - perfectly normal.
Next thing you know, someone will be claiming Texas isn't a state because it's not a sovereign entity like other independent states. It's about time we called that place the UPA - United Provinces of America. Which is "One Nation, Under God"... and part of the United Nations... but then the Canadian First Nations aren't independent states, or even countries, nor even provinces. We need a new name for them too - Maybe First Municipalities (or Premiers Arrondissements to suit Celine Dion's bunch) has a catchy ring to it, don't you think? :)


You can be a province or a state and be sovereign....don't know where you got that notion. Canadian provinces, US states entered into their federal states as sovereign states with inherent powers. As for FNs, they continue to be nations because that's how we continue to treat them. Municipalities are creatures of legilsation and aren't sovereign.
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by eric84 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:09 pm

i_have_shiny_shoes wrote:I don't know how many times this argument has been rehashed, but a nation and/or country is not necessarily synonymous with a sovereign state. The UK is the sovereign state, with England, Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland the union's constituent countries, as the Library of Congress helpfully notes:

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the collective name of four countries, England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The four separate countries were united under a single Parliament through a series of Acts of Union. The United Kingdom has recently undergone a period of devolution with the creation of the Scottish Parliament, the National Assembly for Wales, and the Northern Ireland Assembly that have the authority to legislate in defined areas.


Moreover, comparisons with states within the US are bunk, which is a federation, not a unitary state like the UK.


You understand though that 'country' is synonymous with a sovereign state in North America, right? That's why it sounds like a silly conceit here. It's funny too now that these so called countries have their ability to legislate defined by a central authority. They certainly have less sovereignty than the Province of Prince Edward Island.....
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by simon_in_exile » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:43 pm

eric84 wrote:You understand though that 'country' is synonymous with a sovereign state in North America, right? That's why it sounds like a silly conceit here.

It all boils down to the fact that you guys speak a bit funny and mangled our language. But that's forgivable, of course - no offense taken.
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by cuchulainn » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:25 pm

I like the English, but they get very upset when their province is labelled as such.

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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by eric84 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:16 pm

simon_in_exile wrote:
eric84 wrote:You understand though that 'country' is synonymous with a sovereign state in North America, right? That's why it sounds like a silly conceit here.

It all boils down to the fact that you guys speak a bit funny and mangled our language. But that's forgivable, of course - no offense taken.


Your needed to do a better job of linguistic imperialism, I guess.
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by ben_hanscombe » Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:42 pm

So it's a rather idiosyncratic usage. As we'd expect from the Brits, of course.

Not true. France and the Kingdom of the Netherlands also have constituent countries.
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by egjeg » Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:56 pm

simon_in_exile wrote:
eric84 wrote:You understand though that 'country' is synonymous with a sovereign state in North America, right? That's why it sounds like a silly conceit here.

It all boils down to the fact that you guys speak a bit funny and mangled our language. But that's forgivable, of course - no offense taken.

Somewhere I read that the typical accent English is spoken with in n. America is probably more similar to what was spoken in London 300 years ago than what's spoken in London today. I guess there was a movement in the 1800s for upperclass Brits to adopt a posh accent, causing pronunciations to change more drastically there.
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by matt_melb » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:05 am

ben_hanscombe wrote:Not true. France and the Kingdom of the Netherlands also have constituent countries.

Hi Ben - I'll concede the Netherlands. For France, I reckon the various terms they use for their overseas territories ('collectivity', 'integral part of France', etc) are just a polite way to avoid calling them 'colonies'.

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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by ben_hanscombe » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:41 am

I'm sure there's people who'd make the same argument for the English use of 'country'.
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by Goldie » Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:09 pm

The problem is not that the UK wants to call it's divisions 'countries.' The problem is tons of the inhabitants use the term as if they were proper countries and don't seem to be aware of the fact that they're not. I assume this is the arrogance Eric is referring to. The terms are often used interchangeably. For example, if you ask someone what countries they've been to as response of 'just two, Spain and Scotland' is a reasonably typical answer.

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Post by leela » Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:39 pm

For example, if you ask someone what countries they've been to as response of 'just two, Spain and Scotland' is a reasonably typical answer.


Really? Seriously? I'd say that that's far from typical. I don't know of anyone who'd consider Scotland or Wales to be 'abroad'.
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by egjeg » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:08 pm

Interesting that UKers might be offended if Scotland or whales were not called countries, while Chinese will be deeply offended if Taiwan, Hk, Macau, or Tibet are referred to as such.
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by Goldie » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:56 pm

leela wrote:
For example, if you ask someone what countries they've been to as response of 'just two, Spain and Scotland' is a reasonably typical answer.


Really? Seriously? I'd say that that's far from typical. I don't know of anyone who'd consider Scotland or Wales to be 'abroad'.


You don't hang around enough stupid people. The table next to me at the pub last weekend had this conversation. The man asked the old lady how many countries she'd been to, when she said she hadn't been to very many he said, and I quote, "sure you have, you've been to Spain and Tenerife and Gran Canaria and Scotland, that's lots of countries." The mind boggles.

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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by leela » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:21 pm

I'd like to think that stupidness does not equal typical.
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by matt_melb » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:42 pm

egjeg wrote:Interesting that UKers might be offended if Scotland or whales were not called countries, while Chinese will be deeply offended if Taiwan, Hk, Macau, or Tibet are referred to as such.

Yes, you have to laugh at Chinese airports with their 'domestic' 'terminal and then their 'International/Taiwan/HK/Macau' one.

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ben_hanscombe
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by ben_hanscombe » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:55 pm

Goldie wrote:The man asked the old lady how many countries she'd been to, when she said she hadn't been to very many he said, and I quote, "sure you have, you've been to Spain and Tenerife and Gran Canaria and Scotland, that's lots of countries." The mind boggles.

The mind may boggle, but I don't see how that translates to the 'arrogance' you mentioned further up. You need a better example.
Born a worm, spins a coccoon
Goes to sleep, wakes up a butterfly
What the fuck is that about?

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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by cuchulainn » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:56 pm

matt_melb wrote:
egjeg wrote:Interesting that UKers might be offended if Scotland or whales were not called countries, while Chinese will be deeply offended if Taiwan, Hk, Macau, or Tibet are referred to as such.

Yes, you have to laugh at Chinese airports with their 'domestic' 'terminal and then their 'International/Taiwan/HK/Macau' one.


Taiwan is a separate country.

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simon_in_exile
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Re: Travelers Century Club.

Post by simon_in_exile » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:10 pm

ben_hanscombe wrote:
Goldie wrote:The man asked the old lady how many countries she'd been to, when she said she hadn't been to very many he said, and I quote, "sure you have, you've been to Spain and Tenerife and Gran Canaria and Scotland, that's lots of countries." The mind boggles.

The mind may boggle, but I don't see how that translates to the 'arrogance' you mentioned further up. You need a better example.

Desperation not to end up sounding stupid in his own troll?


egjeg wrote:Interesting that UKers might be offended if Scotland or whales were not called countries, while Chinese will be deeply offended if Taiwan, Hk, Macau, or Tibet are referred to as such.

I call whales cetaceans.

And 10 minutes ago booked tickets to visit Taiwan in 3 weeks' time - will be my first visit to a rogue province...
La ruta nos aportó otro paso natural.

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