England whitewash Australia 5-0

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Stephen_Dedalus
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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:21 pm

One day cricket is not a new thing.


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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:58 pm

It's younger than I am.

In any case, I didn't say it was new.

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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by Flobster! » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:34 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:10 pm
You mean they are new this year and it hasn't yet been decided whether they will be continuous or will be final for the year at some point, a champion proclaimed, and the rankings reset at zero? I would have exoected that to be decided before they started oublishing rankings.

Presumably the laws of cricket were changed to allow for one-day matches. If people want to keep watching a five-game series after the winner of the series has been determined, perhaps they would also want always to watch a fourth innings. The laws could be changed to allow them that pleasure.
5-day matches are (almost?) exclusively Test matches afaik. Other lengths happen in other competitions - Australia's domestic First Class competition is 4 days.

The distinction is between matches with two innings each, and single innings, and single-innings matches have always been common. It's international single-innings matches that was the innovation.

Yes, the laws could be changed but spectators and players would be unlikely to support it. Spectators and players do support all matches of a tour being played.

And no, there is no annual winner involved in the rankings, nor championship games, nor is it reset to zero. It's like life.
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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:00 pm

I would say like tennis rather than football.

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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:02 pm

Is there no limit to the number of overs in one-day cricket?

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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by Flobster! » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:30 pm

Yes, one-day internationals are limited to 50 overs. But there are plenty of non-international single-innings games played without limits.

The difference between it and tennis is that rankings do cease for a player when they retire. No national team has retired from international cricket, although it could happen.
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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:39 pm

And in that case I bet they would not be ranked anymore, so that is no difference.

Limited-overs cricket, which is what we were talking about, began in my lifetime. In any case, whether or not it is new is irrelevant to my point. The laws of cricket are not like unto the law of the Medes and the Persians, which altereth not.

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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by Flobster! » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:43 pm

It's a difference in that every tennis player retires, no country involved in the rankings system has retired.

Limited overs INTERNATIONAL cricket began in your lifetime. I don't know when the first limited overs domestic cricket was played.

Yes, I've said that the Laws can be changed. I also said that neither players nor spectators would support play continuing after a match had been decided.
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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by Flobster! » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:46 pm

The idea for a one-day, limited 50-over cricket tournament, was first played in the inaugural match of the All India Pooja Cricket Tournament in 1951 in the small town of Thrippunithura in Kerala. It is thought to be the brain child of KV Kelappan Thampuran, a former cricketer and the first Secretary of the Kerala Cricket Association.
That was the first tournament, no info on the first game.
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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:52 pm

I don't know when the first limited overs domestic cricket was played.
If you had read and understood my posts, you would have known that limited-overs cricket began in my lifetime.

In any case, when it began is irrelevant to my point. You said that x was the case because the laws of cricket say so, which is not an argument as to why x should continue to be the case.

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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by Flobster! » Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:19 pm

I seriously doubt that you have managed to look at all the records of cricket ever played, Vin. You are correct that international one-day cricket began in your lifetime, and the first-recorded (according to Wiki) one-day tournament may have been in your lifetime, but I would be very surprised if no-one had ever played a limited-overs game before then.

It should continue to be the case because neither players nor spectators would support changing it. That make 3 times I've written that.
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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:59 pm

Should I add "As far as we know" in front of every factual statement I make? "As far as we know, the incandescent lightbulb did not exist in the eighteenth century." (But someone may have invented it and failed to record his invention.)

Then we go back to the question that made me bring up four innings game in the first place. Wellpisser offered two as reasons for continuing a five-day series after the winner of the series had been determined. The first was that the rankings depended on results. You correctly dismissed that because five-day series began before there were rankings. The second was that people liked watching cricket. But why do they like watching the one or two games after the winner had been determined but would not stand for changing the rules to allow them to watch the fourth innings of an already-decided game? So that argument doesn't hold up either. I am left wondering what I wondered in my first post in this thread, why they continue to play once the winner has been determined.

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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by Flobster! » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:15 pm

As I believe I've said earlier, while the series result is of importance, it is not of sole importance. A match is always worth playing.

There is something to play for when you play a match - the winning of the match. This is perhaps poignant if you've already lost the series but it is definitely a prize worth having.

There is literally nothing to play for after a match has been completed. There is no "match" that can continue to be played. What in fact would you be playing if you kept going after the match was won? Certainly not a game of cricket.
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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:22 pm

Is this whole thread about Vbot not understanding why a 5 match series ends if a side wins the first 3 games?

Is that really it?

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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by Flobster! » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:23 pm

No, it's about him not understanding why it DOESN'T end if it's a test series.
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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:29 pm

That's what I meant.

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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by Flobster! » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:30 pm

Good.
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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:31 pm

If the ashes in Australia ended everything Australia built up a 3-0 lead there would never be any games at the MCG

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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by Flobster! » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:33 pm

Heh. True.
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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:58 pm

Stephen_Dedalus wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:22 pm
Is this whole thread about Vbot not understanding why a 5 match series ends if a side wins the first 3 games?

Is that really it?
It has been about two things:

Why the series doesn't end once the winner of the series has been determined, and whether I should have known from the header that the sport referred to was cricket. (Even though 5-0 does not look like a cricket score.)

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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:06 pm

Flobster! wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:15 pm
As I believe I've said earlier, while the series result is of importance, it is not of sole importance. A match is always worth playing.

There is something to play for when you play a match - the winning of the match. This is perhaps poignant if you've already lost the series but it is definitely a prize worth having.
All those are just assertions, not arguments. Three of the four major sports in North America (baseball, basketball, and hockey) determine the champion of the season with a series of playoffs (wither best of seven or best of five) among the teams finishing with the best record. In no case does a series continue after the winner of the series has been determined. I can think of no reason why anyone would want it otherwise.

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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by Flobster! » Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:11 am

I'm not attempting to argue why it MUST be so, I'm offering a few thoughts as to why it IS.

(And a test series is not the finals series at the end of a sporting league's season. The situations aren't really comparable.)
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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:20 am

Vinny, sometimes in a 5 match test series (which in theory can last 25 days, 5 x 5, but spread over a few months) the whole series can still end up as a draw.
You can draw a match, thus mathematically the series can be drawn)

And then everyone goes home.

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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by Flobster! » Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:22 am

Good point. And not all series are odd numbers of games, anyway.

And just for the confusion: while drawn games are common, tied games are rare.

For interest - the Laws refer to matches being either time-limited or overs-limited but other than that don't have rules regarding them. The Laws imagine a situation where opposing captains agree on whether the match is to be time- or overs-limited (and unlimited is a possibility - there have been 99 timeless tests) before the start of play.
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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by GLimpet » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:59 am

Flobster! wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:30 pm
Yes, one-day internationals are limited to 50 overs.
And T20 is ... oh, can't remember.

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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by VinnyD » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:23 pm

Stephen_Dedalus wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:20 am
Vinny, sometimes in a 5 match test series (which in theory can last 25 days, 5 x 5, but spread over a few months) the whole series can still end up as a draw.
You can draw a match, thus mathematically the series can be drawn)

And then everyone goes home.
Thank you, Stephen.

Does "test" just mean "international" then? I thought test cricket was one thing and limited-overs cricket was something else.

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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by VinnyD » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:29 pm

And just for the confusion: while drawn games are common, tied games are rare.
While looking that up, I learned the principal purpose of a declaration, which I had never understood. So thanks.

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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:32 pm

In my mind a 'Test' is International 5-day (maximum) cricket.

It can become attritional, which in my mind is linked to the word Test.

It can become very 'testing' to watch.

In theory a test can last one day if both sides get bowled out twice. That can be very funny.

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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by Flobster! » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:58 pm

A test is an ìnternational multi-innings match. (You can't say time-limited because timeless tests were once common and they are still possible.)

All other forms of cricket are open to individual choice. First-class competitions* usually/always have two innings each but lower grades might have one. 'Village' cricket, held to be the ''realest' generally has one innings, I think.

The Laws of cricket don't define this sort of thing. Test tours have an agreed set of conditions decided before each tour, and anyone else can make up whatever form they like.

*The highest level of domestic competition. Test matches are also technically first class matches.
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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by VinnyD » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:10 pm

So was the recent series one of the "5 match test series" that SD refers to? I don't know whether a match with one innings per side, total two innings, counts as multi-innings in your mind or not. If so it meets your definition of test.

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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:21 pm

It was a 5-series one day affair.

Each side gets to bat and bowl for one day only

Each team gets 50 overs of 6 balls (max 300 balls)

The team which scores the most runs in that day wins that day.

Yes it might seem odd to you that if one team builds up a 3 game lead, why don't they just stop?

Because these trips are planned long in advance, and people look forward to a match being held at that particlar ground

Plus, everyone loves a 5-0 whitewash.

I'm going to give you the benefit on the doubt here and not just being Vinny.

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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by Flobster! » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:29 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:10 pm
So was the recent series one of the "5 match test series" that SD refers to? I don't know whether a match with one innings per side, total two innings, counts as multi-innings in your mind or not. If so it meets your definition of test.
Test matches are always two innings (two innings for each side). I think both SD and I said that.

If you reflect a second you'll see that a single-innings match must mean a single innings for each side.

SD referred to 5-day matches, ie test matches. As it happens, Eng-Aus test series are always of 5 matches (although there have been 6 in the past). Tests with different competitors can be 5 matches but often aren't. England's most recent test series was a pathetic 2 matches, v Pakistan, and both side won one.
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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by VinnyD » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:01 pm

I am still confused about the "5-match test series" that SD referred to.

Do England and Australia play five test matches against each other every year? If so, I don't see how that explains why they keep playing a five-game series of one-day matches after the winner has been decided, which is what SD was trying to explain.

If, as I asked about, "test" just means "international", and he was referring to the five-game series of one-day matches (do they play five of those series every year?), then what he said make sense, assuming that every year the winner of the majority of those 25 matches is covered with glory. (And not the winner of the majority of the series.) But you seem to be saying that test does not mean international.

His response wasn't clear to me.

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Re: England whitewash Australia 5-0

Post by Flobster! » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:33 am

No, and this has been mentioned. Eng-Aus play a test series every 2 years (in alternating countries, so each country gets the series every 4 years). This has been 5-matches for quite a while but it has been 6 in the past.

A test series is a group of international games in the longest form (up to 5 days duration). The number of games in a series is not fixed.

One-day international games are not organised into a 'season' or whatever. They are usually appended to a test tour, although one-day tours do happen.

There is also the one-day world cup, of course.
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