Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

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Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by flojin » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:16 am

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Lost Soul wrote:I have it on good authority that William Brennan, Maobama's CIA head, will be referred by the IG for criminal indictment.

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Annotated » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:48 am

I would follow this genius if I were you.

Oh, wait, I'm sure you already do.
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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by VinceFoster » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:06 am

The utopian dreams that have been playing out on American campuses are enough to make any rational person shudder.

I don't doubt that there are people on the right that would turn this country into the Philippines to save a little on taxes, but that doesn't mean their opponents are serving up something magically delicious.
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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Argonheart_Po » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:21 am

Childish.
“We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.” —C.S. Lewis

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Chi_Rup » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:26 am

It assumes that the Modern Right wants to be happy.

For the benefit of Po, that’s an emotion similar to how you felt when your houseboy fell down a mineshaft but without the guilt.

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Argonheart_Po » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:30 am

Chi_Rup wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:26 am
It assumes that the Modern Right wants to be happy.

For the benefit of Po, that’s an emotion similar to how you felt when your houseboy fell down a mineshaft but without the guilt.
Or when a government flunky gave you your certificate and your ambition of becoming an invalid was achieved?
“We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.” —C.S. Lewis

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Chi_Rup » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:32 am

Uh oh, guess that puts me on the Modern Right extermination lists. Oops!

So I was right about the houseboy?

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Argonheart_Po » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:45 am

I fully support your ambition of depriving some poor kid with cerebral palsy of his social housing apartment. Some people’s lives are so wretched and unenviable that any upwards trajectory is good.
“We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.” —C.S. Lewis

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Chi_Rup » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:49 am

Yeah, just broke in and threw the little cripple over the balcony to the cheers of the red-faced fat-armed working class below. Got a great write up in The Spectator, surprised you haven’t c&p it already.

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Argonheart_Po » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:07 am

I don’t think it works like that. But now you’re an invalid, by the perverse mathematics of social housing allocation you will be depriving an unfortunate of somewhere to live.

Tip - try and make the housing workers feel sorry for you. I’m sure you’re an expert in that.

And congratulations of your achievement. Did the certificate come in a frame?
“We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.” —C.S. Lewis

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Chi_Rup » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:16 am

If anyone really needs a decent place to live surely they can just seize your farm? You can’t own land, after all, just borrow it for the benefit of the eco-system.

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Chi_Rup » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:28 am

Anyway, because Po has no more comebacks, how about making this a fun thread about Utopia?

Left wing Utopia: Artisan wood-fired pizza and craft beer for all!

Right wing Utopia: Papa John’s.

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by strife » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:42 pm

Chi_Rup wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:28 am
Anyway, because Po has no more comebacks, how about making this a fun thread about Utopia?

Left wing Utopia: Artisan wood-fired pizza and craft beer for all!

Right wing Utopia: Papa John’s.
If you disrespect and sneer at the Workers who eat Papa John's, they'll get maudlin and boycott your artisan wood-fired pizza and craft beer.
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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Chi_Rup » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:50 pm

Funnily enough, my workplace cancelled their contract with Papa John’s after a request from the stage technicians. Working class people prefer a thinner crust and less racism.

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Argonheart_Po » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:06 pm

“contract”
“We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.” —C.S. Lewis

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Chi_Rup » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:10 pm

Yep. During night shifts removing sets and equipment we get pizza delivered for crew who missed their dinner break. About a dozen a week when we’re busy.

Anyway, workers who were entitled to this chose to refuse it and get accounts to fix up with a local independent instead.
Last edited by Chi_Rup on Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Ped_Yai » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:12 pm

A more useful demarcation between political views is those who believe in any kind of Utopia, and those who do not.
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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Chi_Rup » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:17 pm

Not really. I don’t wish to talk down to you but since its original use by Sir Thomas More, the concept of an idealised perfect society has been presented by everyone from monarchists to anarchists, with capitalists, religious fundamentalists and vegans along the way.

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Godjira » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:20 pm

Was Thomas More a saint or a sir?
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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Chi_Rup » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:23 pm

Both! He really hit the jackpot for a Renaissance guy.

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by cuchulainn » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:28 pm

Ped_Yai wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:12 pm
A more useful demarcation between political views is those who believe in any kind of Utopia, and those who do not.
Left wingers want life to improve for everyone.

Right wingers shrug when they learn that life is worsening for the serfs. "Globalization. What can you do?"

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by strife » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:35 pm

Right wingers live in perpetual Fear that someone, somewhere is having Fun in a way they can't understand.
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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by BulletPark » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:09 am

I thought those were Puritans.

The Alt Right is all about drugs and whores.

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Godjira » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:32 am

Chi_Rup wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:23 pm
Both! He really hit the jackpot for a Renaissance guy.
But, he lost his head in the process!
That's the kind of bold flavor they enjoy in Albuquerque!

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by VinceFoster » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:25 am

Ped_Yai wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:12 pm
A more useful demarcation between political views is those who believe in any kind of Utopia, and those who do not.
yep.
I'm so excited you decided
to come over and beg.

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Chi_Rup » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:45 am

That’s just a demarcation between nihilists and everyone else, surely? Nihilism isn’t politics. It’s probably a childhood vitamin deficiency or something.

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by simon_in_exile » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:18 am

I’d like to see a definition of a right-wing utopia from a right-wing perspective.

Argon: you start.
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Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Godjira » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:20 am

A world we all behave prudently and seldom engage with our genitalia.
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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Argonheart_Po » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:44 am

Chi_Rup wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:10 pm
Yep. During night shifts removing sets and equipment we get pizza delivered for crew who missed their dinner break. About a dozen a week when we’re busy.

Anyway, workers who were entitled to this chose to refuse it and get accounts to fix up with a local independent instead.
You must have worked for days to draw up the “contract” with Papa Johns. Did it have a garlic bread consideration?
“We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.” —C.S. Lewis

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Argonheart_Po » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:46 am

simon_in_exile wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:18 am
I’d like to see a definition of a right-wing utopia from a right-wing perspective.

Argon: you start.
I think anyone who thinks a utopia is even remotely possible is an idiot or a dangerous lunatic.

Don’t you?
“We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.” —C.S. Lewis

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by simon_in_exile » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:02 am

Yes. That’s partly why I asked you.
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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Chi_Rup » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:29 am

Argonheart_Po wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:44 am
Chi_Rup wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:10 pm
Yep. During night shifts removing sets and equipment we get pizza delivered for crew who missed their dinner break. About a dozen a week when we’re busy.

Anyway, workers who were entitled to this chose to refuse it and get accounts to fix up with a local independent instead.
You must have worked for days to draw up the “contract” with Papa Johns. Did it have a garlic bread consideration?
No, just pizzas to a specific order at a discount at weird times. I can see how someone who can’t comprehend negotiating with a local pizza shop would have issues with imagining idealised societies.

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by strife » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:02 pm

Contracts for regular food delivery are perfectly normal. People on my project have even negotiated one with the Lebanese place downstairs, since we are regular customers. This might seem strange to a misanthropic hermit living in the Outback, but to a city dweller working with Other People, business as usual.
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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Argonheart_Po » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:10 pm

Your poor lives.

You must change. It’s not too late.
“We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.” —C.S. Lewis

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by strife » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:17 pm

Why?
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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by cuchulainn » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:02 pm

In all fairness, many right wingers are sociopaths and just don’t care about their fellow man.
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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Chi_Rup » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:57 pm

Not sure about sociopaths, but the evidence of this thread shows a clear difficulty with imagination or the ability to handle change.

Interesting that politicians with clear and radical visions of the future rely on votes from people for whom that’s just crazy talk.

I don’t want to sidetrack this conversation from hearing a right wing view of a perfect society, as Simon asked, but I would be surprised if we got one.

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Ped_Yai » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:02 pm

Chi_Rup wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:57 pm
Not sure about sociopaths, but the evidence of this thread shows a clear difficulty with imagination or the ability to handle change.

Interesting that politicians with clear and radical visions of the future rely on votes from people for whom that’s just crazy talk.

I don’t want to sidetrack this conversation from hearing a right wing view of a perfect society, as Simon asked, but I would be surprised if we got one.
Perfect societies require perfect men.

Conservatives, as opposed to "right wingers", what ever that means, do not believe in perfect men, nor the perfectabilty of men. So they do not believe in utopias of any variety.

It's the left who believes in the perfectability of mankind. And they've murdered tens of millions of rejects in the process of trying to achieve it.
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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Chi_Rup » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:29 pm

Sir Thomas More was very not left wing.

When did conservatives lose their belief in humanity? Don’t historical utopias acknowledge the fallibility of humans and try to correct that? Or is human behaviour just something awful we’re born with, like lupus?

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by cuchulainn » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:31 pm

Ped Yai, try and use your imagination. In the future, would you prefer fellow Americans to work 60 hours a week and not have health insurance or work 35 hours and have health insurance?

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by cuchulainn » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:38 pm

Ped Yai, which image do you prefer?

Image

Image A


Image

Image B

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Logg » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:57 pm

Isn't this like "My imaginary sky god is better than your imaginary sky god"?

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by VinceFoster » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:04 pm

Yeah. Angels on the head of a pin BS.
I'm so excited you decided
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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Argonheart_Po » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:46 pm

Chi_Rup wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:29 pm
Sir Thomas More was very not left wing.

When did conservatives lose their belief in humanity? Don’t historical utopias acknowledge the fallibility of humans and try to correct that? Or is human behaviour just something awful we’re born with, like lupus?
Yes.

Historical left wing utopias did try and correct the fallibility of human beings by murdering them. 25 million in the Soviet Union. Dead. Perhaps 100 million in China. Dead. Equality of outcome is an ideology that always seems to turn instantly murderous.
“We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.” —C.S. Lewis

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by cuchulainn » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:58 pm

The Third Reich was a conservative utopia.

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by strife » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:03 pm

When I think of conservative utopias, I think of Franco's Spain, or Pinochet's Chile, or Revolutionary Iran. God, Family, Country. No bars or nightclubs, no fucking except between man-woman married couples, through a sheet. Obedience.
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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Argonheart_Po » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:44 pm

There are no utopias.

Equality of outcome is a murderous idealody.
“We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.” —C.S. Lewis

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by strife » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:46 pm

Argonheart_Po wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:44 pm
There are no utopias.
Agreed.
Equality of outcome is a murderous idealody.
Agreed. So why does the modern right oppose equality of opportunity?

By the way, it's 'ideology.'
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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by thegreenlantern » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:08 pm

Logg wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:57 pm
Isn't this like "My imaginary sky god is better than your imaginary sky god"?
I get what you're saying, but what, is this distracting us from the other threads in which we're debating concrete policy plans for the eager ears of an influential audience?
There are no utopias.
No, there aren't, but that's obviously not the spirit of the discussion at this point. What rules of political or economic life are most likely to deliver a society that looks most fair or productive to you? What does the distribution of power and wealth look like in that society as a result, and why is that result better than alternatives?

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Re: Utopia: Left wing vs. Right wing

Post by Godjira » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:17 pm

Ped_Yai wrote:
Chi_Rup wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:57 pm
Not sure about sociopaths, but the evidence of this thread shows a clear difficulty with imagination or the ability to handle change.

Interesting that politicians with clear and radical visions of the future rely on votes from people for whom that’s just crazy talk.

I don’t want to sidetrack this conversation from hearing a right wing view of a perfect society, as Simon asked, but I would be surprised if we got one.
Perfect societies require perfect men.

Conservatives, as opposed to "right wingers", what ever that means, do not believe in perfect men, nor the perfectabilty of men. So they do not believe in utopias of any variety.

It's the left who believes in the perfectability of mankind. And they've murdered tens of millions of rejects in the process of trying to achieve it.
Of course some conservatives do believe in utopian/perfect ideals. Don’t be ridiculous. For example, the invisible hand. Cutting welfare or taxes will naturally create jobs. Things like this are based to some degree on faith in ideals.

And liberals, as opposed to the left, whatever that means, have not murdered tens of millions. And, it is a belief in the imperfection of mankind that causes liberals to support things like welfare- that not everyone is perfect and some of us fail occasionally and need help.

(And the right have killed and enslaved millions in pursuit of their racial and economic ideals. Why are you comparing the mainstream right to the far left?)
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