I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

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I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by Wellpisser » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:51 am

But he is completely correct about the Molotov/Ribbentrop pipeline. It was nauseating seeing Schroeder at Putins latest coronation like some poundshop Valerian

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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by eric84 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:00 pm

It’s trumpiedoodle projecting about his own dependence with Putin.
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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by dBrother » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:37 pm

What's the problem with the pipeline?

Germans need gas, Russians are selling gas, and, a direct pipeline is more secure than an indirect one is it not?

Just takes away the dependence on fragile insecure former eastern block countries the gas had to flow through before..
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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by OnTheBall » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:54 pm

The problem is this...

The US is over paying for NATO, an alliance that, in essence, was formed to protect Western Europe from the USSR (now Russia).

The Germans are under-paying their share, while at the same time handing over billions and billions of dollars to the potential "enemy" for gas, and in the process developing a dependency on this "enemy."

If I were an American, I'd be feeling as if the Germans were taking the piss. Trump is spot on.

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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by eric84 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:57 pm

If trumpiedoodle truly cared about western defence and nato, he may have a point. But of course, he cares nothing about collective defence or collective anything for that matter. So this serves only to distract attention away from his own Russian dependency.
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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by OnTheBall » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:05 pm

Trump has voiced his opinion. He is either right or wrong in what he has said, and his motives are irrelevant in this regard (and I don't agree with what you think his ulterior motives are).

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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by eric84 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:50 pm

Do you really think he gives a shit about German security or gas dependence on Russia? Answer honestly.
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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by korgy » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:55 pm

oh, please. this is just diversion from Trump's own Russia shenanigans.
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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by flojin » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:58 pm

OnTheBall wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:05 pm
Trump has voiced his opinion. He is either right or wrong in what he has said, and his motives are irrelevant in this regard (and I don't agree with what you think his ulterior motives are).
The problem is that Trump has ten opinions for every issue. He has said that Putin is a great friend, that he's fine. Now he's saying Russia is a threat.

You can't just pick the opinions you like and pretend he agrees with you. Take everything he says and understand he has no opinions.
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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by OnTheBall » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:58 pm

eric84 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:50 pm
Do you really think he gives a shit about German security or gas dependence on Russia? Answer honestly.
His POV about the situation is either right or wrong (you pretty much admitted that he is right when you wrote "...may have a point..."). His motives are irrelevant.

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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by eric84 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:07 pm

OnTheBall wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:58 pm
eric84 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:50 pm
Do you really think he gives a shit about German security or gas dependence on Russia? Answer honestly.
His POV about the situation is either right or wrong (you pretty much admitted that he is right when you wrote "...may have a point..."). His motives are irrelevant.
Yes, but context is important and the fact that you won't answer tells me you agree that he doesn't give a shit about it. I bet bonerboy knows that too.
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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by OnTheBall » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:13 pm

flojin wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:58 pm
OnTheBall wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:05 pm
Trump has voiced his opinion. He is either right or wrong in what he has said, and his motives are irrelevant in this regard (and I don't agree with what you think his ulterior motives are).
The problem is that Trump has ten opinions for every issue. He has said that Putin is a great friend, that he's fine. Now he's saying Russia is a threat.

You can't just pick the opinions you like and pretend he agrees with you. Take everything he says and understand he has no opinions.
When it comes to foreign policy I think he is playing everyone brilliantly. Trump will get what he wants out of the NATO countries who aren't paying their fair share and has put Germany on the defensive by his "captive" comments. Great work.

Does anyone here disagree with this?
'So we're supposed to protect you against Russia but they're paying billions of dollars to Russia, and I think that's very inappropriate,' Trump said. 'And the former chancellor of Germany is the head of the pipeline company that's supplying the gas.'

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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by OnTheBall » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:16 pm

eric84 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:07 pm
OnTheBall wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:58 pm
eric84 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:50 pm
Do you really think he gives a shit about German security or gas dependence on Russia? Answer honestly.
His POV about the situation is either right or wrong (you pretty much admitted that he is right when you wrote "...may have a point..."). His motives are irrelevant.
Yes, but context is important and the fact that you won't answer tells me you agree that he doesn't give a shit about it. I bet bonerboy knows that too.
A stable Europe/Germany is in America's interest, so yes, he gives a shit. More importantly though, I think his motives are that 1. Europe pays its fair share for NATO and 2. maybe hurt Russia's exports of gas to Europe and have them switch to US gas

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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by OnTheBall » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:19 pm

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/06/trump-n ... aders.html

He's been pretty consistent with his opinion in this. From last year (click on the link. I can't C & P)
Last edited by OnTheBall on Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by eric84 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:19 pm

OnTheBall wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:16 pm
eric84 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:07 pm
OnTheBall wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:58 pm


His POV about the situation is either right or wrong (you pretty much admitted that he is right when you wrote "...may have a point..."). His motives are irrelevant.
Yes, but context is important and the fact that you won't answer tells me you agree that he doesn't give a shit about it. I bet bonerboy knows that too.
A stable Europe/Germany is in America's interest, so yes, he gives a shit. More importantly though, I think his motives are that 1. Europe pays its fair share for NATO and 2. maybe hurt Russia's exports of gas to Europe and have them switch to US gas
Yes, for a normal administration, a stable Germany/Europe is in America's interest. That is clearly not a priority of Trump; otherwise, he wouldn't threaten to end NATO and start trade war with Europe and threaten to impose yet more tariffs on European cars.
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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by OnTheBall » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:22 pm

I have written previously that tariffs and the artificial protection of US companies are not the end game for Trump, they are just a means to an end (the end being getting what he perceives to be "fair" terms of trade).

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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by birdlite » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:31 pm

even a broken clock is right 2x a day.

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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by eric84 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:32 pm

OnTheBall wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:22 pm
I have written previously that tariffs and the artificial protection of US companies are not the end game for Trump, they are just a means to an end (the end being getting what he perceives to be "fair" terms of trade).
Right, right, great strategery. You can see why other countries may take it the wrong way. Like bombing your way to peace, imposing tariffs to achieve free trade doesn't work and never has.
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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by cuchulainn » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:03 pm

Trump is driving Europe into the arms of China and I cannot see how that helps the United States in the long run.

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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by Scrubb » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:47 pm

OnTheBall wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:22 pm
I have written previously that tariffs and the artificial protection of US companies are not the end game for Trump, they are just a means to an end (the end being getting what he perceives to be "fair" terms of trade).
I don't think he has any clear idea of what "fair trade" looks like. I mean, he doesn't have a clue and I'm not talking about him having some far out, crazy idea of what it is. I mean he doesn't have an end goal at all - he doens't have particular terms he thinks would be fair. He's not that clear thinking. He just likes to do big things that sound good to his base and mess up others.
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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by cuchulainn » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:49 pm

Trump has exempted his products and those of Ivanka from Chinese tariffs. He has no moral high ground whatsoever.

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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by VinnyD » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:51 pm

What is a non-pounship valerian?

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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by Flobster! » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:52 pm

Germany should stop buying Russian gas, and buy more expensive US gas instead?

Nah, that's silly.
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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by RichD » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:59 pm

They are two separate topics:

1. NATO: NATO is an alliance. The only value of an alliance is to achieve a strategic goal. The discussion around NATO assumes NATO is the goal - either preserving it or dissolving it. If they all pay their fair share then the alliance should continue - it completely misses the point. What is the goal of the alliance? In a Manichean Cold War world the strategy of the alliance was obvious. Today, the US is the dominant economic power. China is the rising power challenging this dominance. Does NATO still have a role to play from a US standpoint? I this it has; it ties Europe to the US. The disproportionate amount the US invests in NATO gives leverage: if NATO ceased to exist, European countries would need to drastically increase their military spend, they would be forced to consider what an EU defence strategy would like, questions they want to avoid. This focus on the mechanics of an alliance that gives the US huge leverage over Europe is strategic immaturity. The US gets massive ROI on its NATO spend.

2. Energy security: Schroeder is a corrupt asshole on a Trumpian level. The world would be a better place without either of them. But Germany needs to guarantee its energy security. The pipelines, outside of the corruption, are good strategic policy.

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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by simon_in_exile » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:14 pm

Trump’s position fits his “America First” perspective - the US has recently moved into the LNG export business, just as the Dutch government is shutting down Groningen gas field production due to earthquakes, the UK’s gas is running out, and Norway is seeing the end of its gas export plateau on the horizon. At the same time, Germany is quitting nuclear power, and all countries are phasing our coal. So for Europe, it’s gas from Russia, the US or Qatar - and the US sees a chance to pull the rug from underneath the competition. Backing Saudi and the UAE against Qatar in their big family fall-out has a (maybe) unintended positive side-effect for the US here too.
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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by eric84 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:41 pm

It should be pointed out that Germany gets 9 percent of its energy from Russia. Trump thinks it’s 70.
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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by OnTheBall » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:10 pm

Scrubb wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:47 pm
OnTheBall wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:22 pm
I have written previously that tariffs and the artificial protection of US companies are not the end game for Trump, they are just a means to an end (the end being getting what he perceives to be "fair" terms of trade).
I don't think he has any clear idea of what "fair trade" looks like. I mean, he doesn't have a clue and I'm not talking about him having some far out, crazy idea of what it is. I mean he doesn't have an end goal at all - he doens't have particular terms he thinks would be fair. He's not that clear thinking. He just likes to do big things that sound good to his base and mess up others.
He may not. He may actually not even want "fair trade" irrespective of what he actually says and may actually want terms of trade that favour the US, like Flobster writes below.
Flobster! wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:52 pm
Germany should stop buying Russian gas, and buy more expensive US gas instead?

Nah, that's silly.
And he's pressuring Germany and other Euro countries to do so, and so what? His job is looking after America's interests, not in doing what is "fair" to the world.
simon_in_exile wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:14 pm
Trump’s position fits his “America First” perspective - the US has recently moved into the LNG export business, just as the Dutch government is shutting down Groningen gas field production due to earthquakes, the UK’s gas is running out, and Norway is seeing the end of its gas export plateau on the horizon. At the same time, Germany is quitting nuclear power, and all countries are phasing our coal. So for Europe, it’s gas from Russia, the US or Qatar - and the US sees a chance to pull the rug from underneath the competition. Backing Saudi and the UAE against Qatar in their big family fall-out has a (maybe) unintended positive side-effect for the US here too.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/16/busi ... rkets.html
Pretty much

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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by Annotated » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:48 pm

Perhaps China should take over the job of protecting Europe.

How about that as a solution?
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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by Godjira » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:21 am

There’s nothing wrong with agreeing with Trump.

The problem is that Trump doesn’t know what the fuck he’s doing.

He’s already fucked up in North Korea and with immigration. It’s only a matter of time before his NATO, G7 and China trade war chickens come home to roost.
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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by dBrother » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:00 am

eric84 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:41 pm
It should be pointed out that Germany gets 9 percent of its energy from Russia. Trump thinks it’s 70.
35% of its gas comes from russia..
.

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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by simon_in_exile » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:26 am

dBrother wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:00 am
eric84 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:41 pm
It should be pointed out that Germany gets 9 percent of its energy from Russia. Trump thinks it’s 70.
35% of its gas comes from russia..
And gas accounts for 23% of its energy consumption according to Wikipedia. 35% of 23% is 8%, which is close enough to the 9% above.

But peddling fiction to advance an agenda is more useful than stating facts - Trump doesn’t think it’s 70%, but he knows that it’s a useful lie and that works fine for him. He might be an incredibly unethical arsehole, but he’s not stupid.
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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by desertstorm » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:40 am

I and many other people have said, long before Donald Trump has become active in politics, that Europe should increase its fair share of NATO contribution.

Obviously, if US doesn't care about the relations with its NATO alliances, and like to help Russia to achieve its goal to undermine it, then I think Donald Trump is doing a brilliant job. Cooperation and trust are often easy to destroy, but hard and slow to rebuild.

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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by Godjira » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:58 am

He thinks he can bully and threaten them into it.
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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by simon_in_exile » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:01 am

In September 2014, NATO member pledged that, by 2024, they would all reach the target of 2% of annual GDP on military spending. And it's not a legally binding pledge.

All this whining by Trump in 2018 is just posture, but of course the general public believe the lies, so the proto-fascist is doing a good job.
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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by RichD » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:47 am

According the lying New York Times: almost 50% of its gas imports come from Russia but 40% of its oil and 30% of its coal imports come from Russia. About 70% of its energy needs are imported...so, overall probably something like 25% to 30% ...not 70% but also not 8 or 9%...

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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:15 am

dBrother wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:37 pm
What's the problem with the pipeline?

Germans need gas, Russians are selling gas, and, a direct pipeline is more secure than an indirect one is it not?

Just takes away the dependence on fragile insecure former eastern block countries the gas had to flow through before..
The pipeline goes under the Arctic Ocean around the North Cape?

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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by andybox » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:59 am

Clear strategy is a foreign concept where Trump is concerned
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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by incognita » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:16 pm

Trump just had a press conference where he preened & crowed about NATO being fine, and the summit was a success because he got Europe to pledge that they would raise spending to...2% bada bing. And Macron immediately called it BS, he didn't agree to anything.
Facepalm.
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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by Lost Soul » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:24 pm

RichD wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:59 pm
They are two separate topics:

1. NATO: NATO is an alliance. The only value of an alliance is to achieve a strategic goal. The discussion around NATO assumes NATO is the goal - either preserving it or dissolving it. If they all pay their fair share then the alliance should continue - it completely misses the point. What is the goal of the alliance? In a Manichean Cold War world the strategy of the alliance was obvious. Today, the US is the dominant economic power. China is the rising power challenging this dominance. Does NATO still have a role to play from a US standpoint? I this it has; it ties Europe to the US. The disproportionate amount the US invests in NATO gives leverage: if NATO ceased to exist, European countries would need to drastically increase their military spend, they would be forced to consider what an EU defence strategy would like, questions they want to avoid. This focus on the mechanics of an alliance that gives the US huge leverage over Europe is strategic immaturity. The US gets massive ROI on its NATO spend.

2. Energy security: Schroeder is a corrupt asshole on a Trumpian level. The world would be a better place without either of them. But Germany needs to guarantee its energy security. The pipelines, outside of the corruption, are good strategic policy.
Germany also idiotically shut down its nuclear power after Japan, because Germany is so prone to earthquakes and tsunamis. :roll:

Merkel really is a complete dipshit. No wonder Maobama liked her.
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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by RichD » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:21 pm

The nuclear decision was a stupid decision. Her immigration policy shows her true character, I approve. In general, I think German economic policies will kill the EU but I don't think Merkel is any different than any other German leader would be (or maybe can be).

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Re: I don’t like it when Trump agrees with me

Post by simon_in_exile » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:27 pm

RichD wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:47 am
According the lying New York Times: almost 50% of its gas imports come from Russia but 40% of its oil and 30% of its coal imports come from Russia. About 70% of its energy needs are imported...so, overall probably something like 25% to 30% ...not 70% but also not 8 or 9%...
I was quoting gas, but it’s a good point. Renewables accounts for a third of total electricity generation. Add nuclear and it’s up to 45%.
In terms of actual energy consumption (i.e. not just electricity), renewables plus nuclear is 19-20% - so electricity makes up less than half of Germany’s total energy consumption.
For total energy consumption, gas is 24% (47% from Russia). Oil is 35% (40% from Russia), and coal is still 22% (30% from Russia) - so 31-32% of total consumption.
Russian oil and gas accounts for 25% of Germany’s energy consumption. The oil is sold at market rates so every gallon of gasoline consumed globally feeds Russia by increasing the price of Brent crude, whether in Miami or Munich, Chicago or Cologne. Gas consumption will go up globally - hence my post above about the US wanting to stifle the opposition. Coal is being slowly phased out.

Meanwhile, Germany has been of the countries pushing sanctions, whereas in April of this year, Trump personally sabotaged his own administration’s proposal for extra sanctions. It’s a strange world.
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