Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:16 am

misanthrope wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:24 pm
As much as I'd love to see the US withdraw from some of these agreements, Flojin is correct. Trump will never cut the defense budget.
flojin wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:11 pm
…..My point was that Trump will not do that...……………….. You don't or can't seem to understand this.
Hahaha! You don't seem to understand what it costs America to pick up the tab for everyone's defense. Don't you ever see those studies that show America's defense budget is like 20x or 30x the next 10 or 20 countries of whatever; just google it and it is right there in front of your face.

You also don't appear to realize just how expensive it is to maintain all those US military bases all over the world.

You are just letting your personal feelings toward Trump trump the logic and the mathematics.

Close down the "cruise the world" missions of your aircraft carriers and what is Trump going to do with them? Rebuild the Great Lakes lock system big enough so he can station an aircraft carrier on each of the five great lakes to protect the USA from invasion by Canada?

He will have money coming out of his ears and unless he wants to build hundreds of new military bases from coast to coast in every working class varmints small town just to create jobs Trump will have no choice but to start spending the money elseware like in the best and least expensive healthcare system in the world or nice new roads smoother than an F1 track coast to coast etc.

Get past your emotional issues with Trump beating your person and BTW Trump isn't even a real Republican but just a corporate raider that ran a successful hostile takeover because whatever president actually does this will go down as the most freaking fantastic president in living memory and beyond.

You know flojin it would be a nightmare for you. If Trump actually went isolationist and pulled the US troops out of foreign lands the benefit to the USA would force even Democrat partisan puppets like yourself to admit Trump was a better choice than your person and you would be stuck listening to all American sing praises to him forever.

It is amazing that you partisan puppets with your tribe of "democratic party" lemmings just can't get past your "my person always good in everything and other person always evil in everything".

BTW just don't do any of this until Smoker is out of the Sandbox and in the clear and I thank you flojin the Democrat partisan puppet for your tax dollars under Clinton & Obama exactly like under Bush going to my daily security for so many years rather than improving your son's school or whatever.

I really appreciate it from the bottom of my two sizes too small coal black heart.

Warmest Regards, Smoker
Last edited by Smoker on Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:23 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by misanthrope » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:18 am

Smoker wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:16 am
misanthrope wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:24 pm
As much as I'd love to see the US withdraw from some of these agreements, Flojin is correct. Trump will never cut the defense budget.
flojin wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:11 pm
…..My point was that Trump will not do that...……………….. You don't or can't seem to understand this.
Hahaha! You don't seem to understand what it costs America to pick up the tab for everyone's defense. Don't you ever see those studies that show America's defense budget is like 20x or 30x the next 10 or 20 countries of whatever; just google it and it is right there in front of your face.

You also don't appear to realize just how expensive it is to maintain all those US military bases all over the world.

You are just letting your personal feelings toward Trump trump the logic and the mathematics.

Close down the "cruise the world" missions of your aircraft carriers and what is Trump going to do with them? Rebuild the Great Lakes lock system big enough so he can station an aircraft carrier on each of the five great lakes to protect the USA from invasion by Canada?

He will have money coming out of his ears and unless he wants to build hundreds of new military bases from coast to coast in every working class varmints small town he will have no choice but to start spending the money elseware like in the best and least expensive healthcare system in the world or nice new roads smoother than an F1 track coast to coast etc.

Get past your emotional issues with Trump beating your person and BTW Trump isn't even a real Republican but a corporate raider that ran a successful hostile takeover because whatever president actually does this will go down as the most freaking fantastic president in living memory and beyond.

You know flojin it would be a nightmare for you. If Trump actually went isolationist and pulled the US troops out of foreign lands it benift to the USA would force even partisan puppets like yourself to admit Trump was a better choice that your person and you would be stuck with him forever.

It is amazing that you partisan puppets with your tribe of "democratic party" lemmings just can't get past your "my person always good in everything and other person always evil in everything".

BTW just don't do any of this until Smoker is out of the Sandbox and in the clear and I thank you for your tax dollars going to my daily security for so many years rather than improving your son's school etc. I really appreaciate it from the bottton of my two sizes too small coal black heart.

Warmest Regards, Smoker
As much as I'd like to agree with you, you're wrong on this. Bases closed = some other military spending.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by dBrother » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:31 am

BulletPark wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:37 pm
DCComic wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:33 pm
Oh good grief,
In terms of numbers?
Really?

The Merkins killed fewer than the Nazis because there was hardly anybody left to fucking kill.
Er....

No one would deny that what happened to the native people of North America was not hideous or, in the case of the Trail of Tears, an atrocity; or the Wounded Knee massacre and similar actions, a war crime.

But actually the United States (and i would argue the New World colonial powers in general) did not commit genocides.

That's kind of a Euro thing.

And Australian, if you want to stretch a point.
Er, how are you wriggling out of responsibility for the fact that your
National forefathers shot out most of the natives while we still have to bear responsibility for our genocidal past ?

(Australia wasn't a country until 1900 btw while you Lot declared independence 100 or more years earlier, y'all killed a fuckload of natives in that 124 extra years you got on us)
Last edited by dBrother on Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:31 am

misanthrope wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:18 am
As much as I'd like to agree with you, you're wrong on this. Bases closed = some other military spending.
On what? An aircraft carrier on Lake Superior? Or golden bayonets?

Get past it is Trump talking about isolationism rather than your person (your Washington insider person wanted to maintain foreign policy status quo) because your emotions just muck up your brain. Do you have any concept of just how much money would be flowing back to the domestic USA?

You know what is hilarious? With the USA not picking up the tab for everyone else's defense spending your military would probably start making money or at least start costing even less due to the billions flowing into the USA from weapons sales and just the training of foreign troops to use the weapons you sell them.

The Pentagon: "Hey boys n girls we are now a profit center!"

You had better pray to Allah that Trump doesn't go isolationist or you will end up having to hear for the rest of your life from generations of Americans proclaiming wasn't it great for America when Trump beat Misanthrope & flojin's person yada yada yada.

Oh and same as flojin, I would like to personally thank you misanthrope for your tax dollars paying for Smoker & the oil billionaire's daily security just the same under Clinton & Obama as under Bush instead of spending your hard earned money on better education for Americans or whatever

Warmest Regards, Smoker
Last edited by Smoker on Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:51 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by DCComic » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:37 am

dBrother wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:31 am
Er, how are you wriggling out of responsibility for the fact that your
National forefathers shot out most of the natives while we still have to bear responsibility for our genocidal past ?
They really believe they're exceptional.
It's bizarre.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:28 am

Smoker, you’re living in a dream world. Trump wants next year’s military budget to be $720 billion. He’s cranking it up, chief. There’s no limit, there’s no “he’ll have no other choice”, he’s letting it all ride.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:54 am

Godjira wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:28 am
Smoker, you’re living in a dream world. Trump wants next year’s military budget to be $720 billion. He’s cranking it up, chief. There’s no limit, there’s no “he’ll have no other choice”, he’s letting it all ride.
If Trump actually went isolationist and shut down all those overseas military bases he wouldn't be able to find defense stuff to spend all money on even if he wanted to!

And even if Trump did TRY to use all the money saved to DEFEND AMERICA by building the Great Wall of America on the Mexican border the same size of THE WALL in GAME OF THRONES he would probably still have money left over.

What are you going to do with all that money? Dredge the Mississippi so you can sail Air Craft carriers up and down it to protect American's heartland from attack by Martians?

What are you going to do with the billions you make from arms sales and training now that American isn't buying "EACH AND EVERY ROUND" for everyone in the "Pay for my Defense" Pub?

What a relief for me. When I had a vested interest in America wasting money on a fat cat Canadian's security on other side of the world I actually had to argue for America picking up the tab for me. Now that it is back to the icebox I don't need to dream up reasons for America to spend treasure & risk American lives to defend people that despise America on the other side of the world.

By the beard of the prophet that was a tough argument but no more.

BTW like flojin & misanthrope, thank you Godjira & I should also thank Democrat's Obama & Clinton just like Republican Bush for choosing to spend your American tax dollars on Smoker & the oil billionaire's daily security. Under Obama & Clinton & Bush your tax dollars were spent wisely defending Smoker the fat cat foreigner on the other side of the world verses wasting your tax dollars on American education or roads or housing or whatever.

Warmest Regards, Smoker
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:48 am

Don’t ramble.

He’s increasing spending. If he saves money by closing bases, he has his space force.


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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by misanthrope » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:00 am

Smoker wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:31 am
misanthrope wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:18 am
As much as I'd like to agree with you, you're wrong on this. Bases closed = some other military spending.
On what? An aircraft carrier on Lake Superior? Or golden bayonets?

Get past it is Trump talking about isolationism rather than your person (your Washington insider person wanted to maintain foreign policy status quo) because your emotions just muck up your brain. Do you have any concept of just how much money would be flowing back to the domestic USA?

You know what is hilarious? With the USA not picking up the tab for everyone else's defense spending your military would probably start making money or at least start costing even less due to the billions flowing into the USA from weapons sales and just the training of foreign troops to use the weapons you sell them.

The Pentagon: "Hey boys n girls we are now a profit center!"

You had better pray to Allah that Trump doesn't go isolationist or you will end up having to hear for the rest of your life from generations of Americans proclaiming wasn't it great for America when Trump beat Misanthrope & flojin's person yada yada yada.

Oh and same as flojin, I would like to personally thank you misanthrope for your tax dollars paying for Smoker & the oil billionaire's daily security just the same under Clinton & Obama as under Bush instead of spending your hard earned money on better education for Americans or whatever

Warmest Regards, Smoker
I only hop that you are right. Otherwise, fuck that noise.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by misanthrope » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:03 am

misanthrope wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:00 am
Smoker wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:31 am
misanthrope wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:18 am
As much as I'd like to agree with you, you're wrong on this. Bases closed = some other military spending.
On what? An aircraft carrier on Lake Superior? Or golden bayonets?

Get past it is Trump talking about isolationism rather than your person (your Washington insider person wanted to maintain foreign policy status quo) because your emotions just muck up your brain. Do you have any concept of just how much money would be flowing back to the domestic USA?

You know what is hilarious? With the USA not picking up the tab for everyone else's defense spending your military would probably start making money or at least start costing even less due to the billions flowing into the USA from weapons sales and just the training of foreign troops to use the weapons you sell them.

The Pentagon: "Hey boys n girls we are now a profit center!"

You had better pray to Allah that Trump doesn't go isolationist or you will end up having to hear for the rest of your life from generations of Americans proclaiming wasn't it great for America when Trump beat Misanthrope & flojin's person yada yada yada.

Oh and same as flojin, I would like to personally thank you misanthrope for your tax dollars paying for Smoker & the oil billionaire's daily security just the same under Clinton & Obama as under Bush instead of spending your hard earned money on better education for Americans or whatever

Warmest Regards, Smoker
I only hope that you are right. Otherwise, fuck that noise.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:41 am

misanthrope wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:03 am
I only hope that you are right. Otherwise, fuck that noise.
Oh I am right all right because I am not a partisan puppet emotionally invested in my person.

If Trump actually does it; unlike your persons Clinton & Obama (US Troops increased from 30,000 to 100,000 in Afganistan and got a Nobel Peace Prize for it) and the Republican's person Bush then Trump will have really done something for America.

However if Trump doesn't go isolationist then he will be the same in this area as Clinton, Obama & Bush.

But if he actually does go isolationist it will be so good for America you will probably be telling your grandchildren you voted for him.

What a hoot!

Warmest Regards, Smoker
Last edited by Smoker on Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Andrea1 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:42 am

Haven't read all of this, so apologies if someone has mentioned already, but there are 50,000+ US troops in Europe, where are they going to be redeployed? I guess they could be used to build/man the wall.

After a quick google, it appears that Germany contributes $1 billion plus to the funding of these troops. Nope, don't think they're going to continue that when they're redeployed to wall building/manning.

I wonder how many of the military voted for Trump?

My brother used to be stationed in Berlin. It was really fucking cushy.
Last edited by Andrea1 on Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by DCComic » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:44 am

Andrea1 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:42 am
I wonder how many of the military voted for Trump?
Armed forces tend to be poorly educated dyed in the wool conservatives.
So, most of them.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Andrea1 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:49 am

Oh! I've got it! They'll be needed for the Venezuelan invasion that Trump is considering.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by DCComic » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:52 am

If they offered the right terms the US could annex Venezuela without a shot being fired to the advantage of both parties.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Chi_Rup » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:03 am

Andrea1 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:42 am
Haven't read all of this, so apologies if someone has mentioned already, but there are 50,000+ US troops in Europe, where are they going to be redeployed? I guess they could be used to build/man the wall.
If you take Starship Troopers as an example, which you should as it’s a clear influence on Trump’s Space Force, all the ex-military get full citizenship and work as teachers.

In fact, isolationism plus a massive increase in defence spending means that the military could do all the stuff other government agencies used to do. Much simpler!

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:42 am

Andrea1 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:42 am
After a quick google, it appears that Germany contributes $1 billion plus to the funding of these troops. Nope, don't think they're going to continue that when they're redeployed to wall building/manning.
If Germany is going to take over their defense and maintain the same quality and quantity as having 50,000 plus American troops it is going to be costing them a lot more than a little bitty billion.

Ok now Andrea1's statement above of "cushy" tells you about the massive amounts of American taxpayers dollars would be saved if Trump implements isolationism and pulls the American troops out of Germany.

Why the heck are American troops in a rich prosperious well governed independent country like Germany decades at the end of the cold war?

Why isn't all that money being spent in America?

Trump might be a loony but Clinton or Obama or Bush or whoever wouldn't do it so does it take a clown to finally step away from the status quo and bring the American troops home?

Warmest Regards, Smoker
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Andrea1 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:53 am

30,000 military in Germany. Germany pays (according to article below) 30-40% of the budget. Not so itty bitty.

If they decide to go the relocate rather than isolation, they could send them all to Japan (with Chinese/North Korean approval, of course) - Japan pays 75% of the costs - It's called the 'Sympathy Budget'. 190 billion yen/pa.

https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20 ... na/017000c

Question: Donald Trump, the presumptive Republican nominee for the U.S. presidential election, has called on U.S. allies to cover the entire cost of hosting U.S. bases on their territory, hasn't he?

Answer: During an interview with American media outlets, Trump has mentioned Japan and other U.S. allies by name, saying that they should pay all costs for bases within their borders. The statements stem from deep-rooted criticism in the U.S. that allies dependent on U.S. military power for their security are getting a "free ride."

Q: So how much is Japan paying for the U.S. bases here?

A: The Japan-U.S. Status of Forces Agreement states that, as a basic principle, Japan must bear the costs relating to hosting U.S. bases while the United States pays for maintaining U.S. military facilities and operational expenditures. In the late 1970s, when Japan was seeing rapid economic growth and consumer price increases while the U.S. economy was in trouble, Japan also agreed to pay part of the labor costs for non-military base employees as well as facility maintenance costs. Since fiscal 1987, Japan has been paying the entirety of those labor expenses plus utility costs that are supposed to be covered by the U.S.

These payments are covered under something called the "sympathy budget," with which Japan sought to allay criticism that Japan was getting a "free ride" on defense. These annual payments peaked in fiscal 1999 at 275.6 billion yen and have been on a generally downward trend due to Japan's economic downturn. They now stand at about 190 billion yen.

Q: I've heard that Japan is paying for the cost of realigning U.S. forces here. Is that true?

A: It is true indeed. Based on the final report of the U.S. Special Action Committee on Okinawa in 1996, the costs of returning land used by the U.S. military, noise reduction measures, moving U.S. Marine Corps Air Station Futenma from Ginowan to the Henoko district of Nago and shifting some U.S. Marines to Guam must all be borne by Japan. Overall costs for U.S. forces realignment have recently been swelling fast as base moves get underway. Including fees to the owners of land occupied by U.S. military installations and spending on the areas around bases, Japan spent a total of some 725 billion yen in connection with the facilities -- more than double the central government's Okinawa Prefecture promotion budget.

Q: Wow, Japan is carrying a heavy load, yes?

A: The United States has about $5.5 billion budgeted for its military presence in Japan in fiscal 2016. That's around 600 billion yen, so Japan is in fact paying much more for the U.S. forces here than the United States itself.

According to U.S. documents from 2004, Japan pays more than 70 percent of the cost of hosting U.S. forces, as compared to between 30 and 40 percent in South Korea, Germany, and other nations. However, as the role of Japan's Self-Defense Forces (SDF) expands under new security-related legislation, the Finance Ministry's Fiscal System Council has declared that U.S. military hosting costs "must be re-evaluated and reduced."

Q: How has Japan responded to Trump's comments?

A: The reaction has mostly been one of bewilderment, including former Japanese Defense Minister Shigeru Ishiba (now minister in charge of regional economic revitalization), who said, "I would like Mr. Trump to have another good read of the Japan-U.S. Security Treaty." Japanese government figures believe that Japan paying most of the expenses for hosting U.S. bases as well as providing the land they stand on is very much in the U.S. national interest. One source close to the SDF said, "It's the U.S. that would be in trouble if it pulled out of Japan," as it would lose influence in Asia. (Answers by Akira Murao, Political News Department)

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Chi_Rup » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:58 am

I hope that everyone invests this peace windfall in education, so no child will ever grow up as aggressively stupid as Smoker.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Lavite » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:04 pm

Unless the U.S. also reduces overall troop strengths, moving the troops out of Europe won't save much money as they will be simply be stationed someplace else. And the cost of constructing or repairing facilities stateside won't be cheap nor the cost of bringing all the equipment home or replacing it with new equipment.

And we only have around 64,000 U.S. troops in Europe anyway. And whatever deal would be worked out, I bet leaves the Air Force bases in Europe. So I don't see it happening anytime soon.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:49 pm

Andrea1 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:53 am
30,000 military in Germany. Germany pays (according to article below) 30-40% of the budget. Not so itty bitty...……………….If they decide to go the relocate rather than isolation, they could send them all to Japan (with Chinese/North Korean approval, of course) - Japan pays 75% of the costs - It's called the 'Sympathy Budget'. 190 billion yen/pa.
Wrong! Do you know anything about defense budgets and RnD costs? Those are just the day to day expenses to maintain a base in its current condition with probably fully depreciated costs of building the freaking base in the first place.

None of that includes the incredible RnD costs of developing and deploying high tech weapons plus the training expense you have to put in to have an skilled person running the high tech weapons.

It is like you are looking at the annual cost of a fighter pilots salary and daily maintance on his jet fighter (hey if we just cover the jet fuel costs we are cool right?) and thinking that is all the costs and ignoring the RnD costs of developing the jet fighter and training costs of the pilot etc etc etc.

And not just the overseas bases don't forget the costs of getting involved in these overseas region/religious/tribal conflicts. Just let the problems on the other side of Oceans be the solved by the people on that side of the Ocean and thus NO MORE VIETNAMS or IRAQS or AFGHANISTANS!

So far this is just money; what about the society & emotional costs to losing young Americans in regional/tribal/religious conflicts on the other side of the world?

Let their "OWN" conflicts be their "OWN" conflicts!

Seriously after Vietnam and Iraq and Afghanistan what great military experiences overseas do you think America is going to be missing out on?

Warmest Regards, Smoker
Last edited by Smoker on Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Andrea1 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:57 pm

So, Smoker is saying that Germany should not only foot ALL OF THE BILL for the daily running costs of bases in Germany, actually all costs incurred in Germany, historically/currently/future, it should also make a major contribution to US R & D, military training costs BACK in the US. How much? Way more than 'itty bitty', obvioualy, but how much, exactly? Ball Park %, Smoker?

Oh and Smoker, I haven't seen a suggestion from you for where these troops should be redemployed to and to what purpose. Yet. You will be sharing that with us, won't you?

It goes without saying that Germany will be paying for that, even if it's just them building the wall.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:05 pm

Andrea1 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:57 pm
So, Smoker is saying that Germany should not only foot ALL OF THE BILL for the daily running costs of bases in Germany,
No I am not saying that; I am saying don't risk young Americans lives overseas defending a rich prosperious independent country like Germany. Let them use their own people and pay whatever defense budget they think they need to spend to defend themselves.
Andrea1 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:57 pm
it should also make a major contribution to US R & D, military training costs BACK in the US. How much? Way more than 'itty bitty', obvioualy, but how much, exactly? Ball Park %, Smoker?
Actually when you buy that spanking new whatever lets say Mercedes the price will include RnD costs.

Thus Germany can either spend their own money and make a 21st century Messerschmitt 109 and thus pay the RnD cost or they can buy a new fighter from the USA and cover all the costs in the price.

And they can either develop the training areas/schools/protocols from scratch or pay the US military to train their people to use the weapons systems.

But the main thing is don't put young Americans in harms way on the other side of the world to defend rich prosperious countries where a large percentage of the population despises America.

Why should any young Americans die in the next Vietnam or Iraq or Afghanistan or whatever tribal/regional/religious conflict on the other side of the world?

Warmest Regards, Smoker
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by strife » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:09 pm

I'm tired of paying for European defense while sneering resentniks get universal health care and subsidized university.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Andrea1 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:16 pm

Smoker wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:05 pm
No, I am not saying that, I am saying don't risk young Americans lives overseas defending a rich prosperious independent country like Germany. Let them use their own people and pay whatever defense budget they think they need to spend to defend themselves.
Ok, he didn't really mean what he said, it was just Smoker's usual hyperbole.

Oh and Smoker, I haven't seen a suggestion from you for where these troops should be redemployed to and to what purpose. Yet. You will be sharing that with us, won't you? The 50,000 from Europe (who Lavite seems to think should stay put). Plus the ones in Asia or can they stay there?

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:31 pm

Nah, overseas activities including the wars are only 10% of the US defense budget.

It’s less than Trump’s increase over Obama.

Trump will always raise defense spending because that’s what he was elected to do.

Ironically, in his rise as an outsider, Trump only embraced the most extremely stereotypical right wing ideas. In fact, he has fanatically embraced the most cartoonish right wing opinions. It’s almost like a parody. That’s why the rightist love him so much. I mean, they have really fallen in love with him, even those afraid of voting for him.

You can expect that defense spending will max out, unhindered, endless while his cronies loot the nations coffers, and those who vote for him intensify their fear of Liberals, communists, Muslims, MS-13, life, sex, death, whatever.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by flojin » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:46 pm

Smoker, Trump has increased military spending. He gave the Pentagon more money than they even asked for in his last budget. He has also asked his generals to create a new branch of the military called the "Space Force." He also said he wants to upgrade our nuclear arsenal at a cost the congressional budget office said would cost "$1.2 TRILLION."

Smoker, do you realize that a new branch of the military that operates in space, a $1.2 trillion nuclear upgrade, and Trump's record of spending more on the military than they themselves even asked for demonstrates that he will not reduce military spending, even if he pulls back the bases in NATO countries?

You are the partisan puppet. You can't even read the numbers, despite the fact that you claim to have been a numbers guy in the sandbox.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Lost Soul » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:36 pm

strife wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:09 pm
I'm tired of paying for European defense while sneering resentniks get universal health care and subsidized university.
Felix is pro-Trump. Who knew?
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by strife » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:39 pm

The Varmint King is opposed to single-payer health care, and that drooling retarded scumbag would never subsidize university education. I favor both.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by twodogs » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:12 pm

Not so sure about single payer health care. He commended Canada and Australia on their systems.

I would love to see the a military based health corp formed as we pull back our forces from around the world. I do not have a problem with subsidized trade schools but we have more than enough academics working at Starbucks or driving for Uber and Lyft.
More irrational spitefulness coming from twodogs...

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Annotated » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:15 pm

Actually, without knowing it (of course), Chirpy touches on a good point.

He would probably plow that money into the Space Force.

But that's cool. It will just be another way for us to dominate the world. ... But much less messy.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by strife » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:16 pm

twodogs wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:12 pm
Not so sure about single payer health care. He commended Canada and Australia on their systems.

Do you really think he understands their systems? He just says shit, without any knowledge to back it up.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:19 pm

Andrea1 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:16 pm
Ok, he didn't really mean what he said
No I meant what I actually not what you are pretending I said: "No, I am not saying that, I am saying don't risk young Americans lives overseas defending a rich prosperious independent country like Germany. Let them use their own people and pay whatever defense budget they think they need to spend to defend themselves."
Smoker wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:05 pm
Oh and Smoker, I haven't seen a suggestion from you for where these troops should be redemployed to and to what purpose. Yet. You will be sharing that with us, won't you? The 50,000 from Europe (who Lavite seems to think should stay put). Plus the ones in Asia or can they stay there?
Well since the US would no longer be maintaining a military presence in the approx 150 (?) foreign countries where the US has military personel stationed ie instead of trying to defend a large chunk of the world all you would be concerned about is defending the USA ie CONCENTRATE FORCES then you can do anything your little heart desires with the troops returned from overseas.

That could be discharging them to redeploying them within the USA to do whatever dutes are required of them from army engineers on domestic infrastructure to training foreign troops about US high tech weapons to additional manpower response to natural disasters to border security yada yada yada.

Whatever your little heart desires as long as the aim is next time an American soldier is put in hards way it is to protect and defend Americans and not foreigners on the other side of the world.

Save billions and don't risk young American lives on the other side of the world and improve your domestic infrastructure and address any domestic concerns where a lot of well trained disciplined people could be useful.

Why should any young Americans die in the next Vietnam or Iraq or Afghanistan or whatever tribal/regional/religious conflict on the other side of the world?

Warmest Regards, Smoker
Last edited by Smoker on Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:28 pm

flojin wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:46 pm
Smoker, Trump has increased military spending...…………….You are the partisan puppet. You can't even read the numbers, despite the fact that you claim to have been a numbers guy in the sandbox.
Then you should be even more for Trump implemeting isolationism and shutting down the overseas bases to reduce costs and take young Americans out of harms way.

This clown might be the only political figure wacky enough to actually do it. The thing that Clinton, Obama & Bush did not do. Stop America spending treasure and putting young American lives at risk overseas defending rich prosperious counties that have the population and wealth to do it themselves.

Nothing you said or claimed or accused about Trump of in any way answers this question: "Why should any young Americans die in the next Vietnam or Iraq or Afghanistan or whatever tribal/regional/religious conflict on the other side of the world?"

So why should they?

Warmest Regards, Smoker
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by BulletPark » Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:32 pm

Smoker wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:41 am
misanthrope wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:03 am
I only hope that you are right. Otherwise, fuck that noise.
Oh I am right all right because I am not a partisan puppet emotionally invested in my person.

If Trump actually does it; unlike your persons Clinton & Obama (US Troops increased from 30,000 to 100,000 in Afganistan and got a Nobel Peace Prize for it) and the Republican's person Bush then Trump will have really done something for America.

However if Trump doesn't go isolationist then he will be the same in this area as Clinton, Obama & Bush.

But if he actually does go isolationist it will be so good for America you will probably be telling your grandchildren you voted for him.

What a hoot!

Warmest Regards, Smoker
You don't HAVE a person.

You're a Canadian.

Kind of like a remora or a flea, where US politics are concerned you are along for the ride.

Hope you continue to find it "a hoot".

Warmest Regards,

BulletPark

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:39 pm

BulletPark wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:32 pm
You're a Canadian. Kind of like a remora or a flea, where US politics are concerned you are along for the ride. Hope you continue to find it "a hoot".
Hahaha! As long as your tax dollars keep paying for Smoker's & the oil billionaires free ride of daily security in the sandbox it is a hoot!

Just think BulletPark some of the money out of your pocket that you pay the governmnet instead of going to American healthcare or education or whatever it is spent keeping that USA carrier group in the Gulf keeping Smoker safe and since you and the other American tax payers are picking up the tab IT IS FREAKING FREE FOR ME!

Thanks BulletPark the Sucker for paying for Smoker the rich foreigner's ride.

Now that is a hoot!

Warmest Regards, Smoker
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by BulletPark » Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:43 pm

Smoker wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:39 pm
BulletPark wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:32 pm
You're a Canadian. Kind of like a remora or a flea, where US politics are concerned you are along for the ride. Hope you continue to find it "a hoot".
Hahaha! As long as your tax dollars keep paying for Smoker's & the oil billionaires free ride of daily security in the sandbox it is a hoot!

Just think BulletPark the money out of your pocket that you pay the governmnet instead of going to American healthcare or education or whatever it is spent keeping that USA carrier group in the Gulf keeping Smoker safe and IT IS FREAKING FREE FOR ME!

Thanks BulletPark the Sucker for paying for Smoker the rich foreigner's ride.

Now that is a hoot!

Warmest Regards, Smoker

Hmmm - I think I see where you are trying to go with this and you are failing miserably.

As an American taxpayer I'm picking up a vast international bill - and largely, I have no problem with that.

I'd rather my money went to starving orphans in Darfur than completely and utterly worthless parasites like you, but I accept that a few bloated blood-drinking ticks on the dog are inevitable.

Enjoy your life in the air-conditioned nightmare that is the sandbox, and I wish you well for living in a van down by the river, which is what you've informed us all you're going to do.

Sounds perfectly hellish to me, but I have acreage.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by flojin » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:18 pm

Smoker wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:28 pm
flojin wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:46 pm
Smoker, Trump has increased military spending...…………….You are the partisan puppet. You can't even read the numbers, despite the fact that you claim to have been a numbers guy in the sandbox.
Then you should be even more for Trump implemeting isolationism and shutting down the overseas bases to reduce costs and take young Americans out of harms way.

This clown might be the only political figure wacky enough to actually do it. The thing that Clinton, Obama & Bush did not do. Stop America spending treasure and putting young American lives at risk overseas defending rich prosperious counties that have the population and wealth to do it themselves.

Nothing you said or claimed or accused about Trump of in any way answers this question: "Why should any young Americans die in the next Vietnam or Iraq or Afghanistan or whatever tribal/regional/religious conflict on the other side of the world?"

So why should they?

Warmest Regards, Smoker
If you had any reading comprehension ability at all, you would know that I have always been for pulling back the troops, shutting down the bases, and reducing America's military footprint.

I was against the invasion of Iraq, Smoker, because I did not believe American lives should have been spent there.

You accused me repeatedly of marching in "Save Our Saddam" parades. But those parades were to stop American lives being spent uselessly in Iraq.

All I'm saying is that Trump is increasing military spending. That's what he does, not what he *might* do.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by strife » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:09 pm

Flojin, unlike the varmintry here, has actually served in the US military.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by misanthrope » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:12 pm

Smoker wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:31 am
misanthrope wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:18 am
As much as I'd like to agree with you, you're wrong on this. Bases closed = some other military spending.
On what? An aircraft carrier on Lake Superior? Or golden bayonets?

Get past it is Trump talking about isolationism rather than your person (your Washington insider person wanted to maintain foreign policy status quo) because your emotions just muck up your brain. Do you have any concept of just how much money would be flowing back to the domestic USA?

You know what is hilarious? With the USA not picking up the tab for everyone else's defense spending your military would probably start making money or at least start costing even less due to the billions flowing into the USA from weapons sales and just the training of foreign troops to use the weapons you sell them.

The Pentagon: "Hey boys n girls we are now a profit center!"

You had better pray to Allah that Trump doesn't go isolationist or you will end up having to hear for the rest of your life from generations of Americans proclaiming wasn't it great for America when Trump beat Misanthrope & flojin's person yada yada yada.

Oh and same as flojin, I would like to personally thank you misanthrope for your tax dollars paying for Smoker & the oil billionaire's daily security just the same under Clinton & Obama as under Bush instead of spending your hard earned money on better education for Americans or whatever

Warmest Regards, Smoker
I'm an isolationist. What you are describing is a dream to me. I just don't believe that it's going to happen.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:31 pm

misanthrope wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:12 pm
I'm an isolationist. What you are describing is a dream to me. I just don't believe that it's going to happen.
Great then be happy that a comb over clown lunatic is promoting it rather than your person.

You are the classic example of if other guy does it; it is bad but if my person does it; then it is good.

Grow up!

Warmest Regards, Smoker
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by strife » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:33 pm

I wouldn't call myself an isolationist, but it's ridiculous that Western Europe and especially Britain expect us to provide their defense so they can pay for social benefits that we don't have.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by misanthrope » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:34 pm

Smoker wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:31 pm
misanthrope wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:12 pm
I'm an isolationist. What you are describing is a dream to me. I just don't believe that it's going to happen.
Great then be happy that a comb over clown lunatic is promoting it rather than your person.

You are the classic example of if other guy does it; it is bad but if my person does it; then it is good.

Grow up!

Warmest Regards, Smoker
i think that you have me confused with someone else.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by BulletPark » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:35 pm

Smoker wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:31 pm
misanthrope wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:12 pm
I'm an isolationist. What you are describing is a dream to me. I just don't believe that it's going to happen.
Great then be happy that a comb over clown lunatic is promoting it rather than your person.

You are the classic example of if other guy does it; it is bad but if my person does it; then it is good.

Grow up!

Warmest Regards, Smoker
Are you actually sort of...simple?

Again, you talk about "Your person" as if you had a person.

You don't, peasant.

Continue to lick the boots of your Arab masters for dosh.

Warmest regards,

BulletPark

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:38 pm

flojin wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:18 pm
If you had any reading comprehension ability at all, you would know that I have always been for pulling back the troops, shutting down the bases, and reducing America's military footprint.
Great then admit your people Clinton & Obama (Bush already did the opposite) didn't do what you wanted.

However Trump who you hate hate at least claimed that is exacly what he has claimed he wants to do/.

Trump at least says (althought I think he is lying) that he want to do that so until he like Obama, Clinton & Bush is proved al liar whey aren't you supporting Trumps's isolationist agenda?

Warmest Regards, Smoker
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:40 pm

strife wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:33 pm
I wouldn't call myself an isolationist, but it's ridiculous that Western Europe and especially Britain expect us to provide their defense so they can pay for social benefits that we don't have.
Sure but to the partian puppets isn't the most important thing if you can bam it on the other side's person?

Warmest Regards, Smoker
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by flojin » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:21 pm

Smoker wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:38 pm
flojin wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:18 pm
If you had any reading comprehension ability at all, you would know that I have always been for pulling back the troops, shutting down the bases, and reducing America's military footprint.
Great then admit your people Clinton & Obama (Bush already did the opposite) didn't do what you wanted.

However Trump who you hate hate at least claimed that is exacly what he has claimed he wants to do/.

Trump at least says (althought I think he is lying) that he want to do that so until he like Obama, Clinton & Bush is proved al liar whey aren't you supporting Trumps's isolationist agenda?

Warmest Regards, Smoker
I've never defended Obama's overseas adventures, least of all the widening of the drone wars or his surveillance of the American people. You seem to have convinced yourself that you know all my positions on Obama's policies, despite my having posted otherwise frequently.

I'm all for moving our troops home. I think that can be done diplomatically without alienating our allies.

But, yes, I support withdrawing our troops. And I support reducing, not increasing, our military budget.

You, on the other hand, were an enormous supporter of the invasion of Iraq and you accuse anyone who was opposed to it of "loving Saddam."
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:45 pm

The British meet NATO spending requirements.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Lost Soul » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:58 pm

Yes they do. As does Canada, Norway and Poland.

The rest of the leeches are raping Daddy, as per usual.
IMPRISON BUSH!

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:05 am

Greece too

But, they all sent troops to Afghanistan when we needed them.
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