Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:37 pm

DCComic wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:54 pm
If America wants to stop invading countries on paper-thin or invented pretexts to save itself a load of money and lives I'm sure the world won't object.
Not only the world but maybe even Americans won't object to sitting out the next Vietnam/Iraq/Afghanistan or whatever.
DCComic wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:54 pm
But you were talking about Germany, which is not harm's way.
I would think that depends on your definition of harm's way.

However assume you are correct and Germany is not in harm's way then why are their 50,000 American troops & their weapons sitting in Germany?

And if unlike you Germany does think they need an extra 50,000 troops in their country then why don't they supply the people and finance the additional troops themselves?
DCComic wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:54 pm
If you can show me data that says the 75% cost that Japan pays for the US troops stationed there isn't sufficient to cover the expense in excess of keeping them in an American base, you'll have a point. Until then you're blowing smoke, as per..
Total dodgeball pay & BS it is obvious to everyone that has ever looked at a map except for DCComic the wilfullly obtuse because he can't think of an argument that the transportation & logistical costs of keeping American troops stationed all over the world is greaten than having their all stateside.

And regardless there is also no reason young Americans should be for example sitting at risk on the DMZ. South Korean is rich and prosperious and has the population so it should be young Koreans at risk on the DMZ rather than Americans.

Bring the troops home and leave the Vietnams & the Iraqs & the Afghanistans & whatever regional/tribal/religious conflicts to those on the other side of the world far from America to deal with however they see fit.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by DCComic » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:43 pm

"the transportation & logistical costs of keeping American troops stationed all over the world is greaten than having their all stateside."

That isn't in question. You're being either dim or dishonest.
The cost of basing troops in Japan is greater, but Japan pays 75% of the overall cost. The US pays 25% of the overall cost.
So does the Japan station cost 4 times as much as the US station?

C'mon. You can do this. It's not hard.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by twodogs » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:56 pm

DCComic wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:58 pm
US defence is a massive workfare scheme. If he brings all those bodies back from wherever they still have to be housed, fed and watered.
There are a little over a million overseas and there are still plenty of bases in the US to house them, too many soybeans and flooding somewhere pretty much every week and we have 6 million unfilled jobs.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by twodogs » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:57 pm

DCComic wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:43 pm
"the transportation & logistical costs of keeping American troops stationed all over the world is greaten than having their all stateside."

That isn't in question. You're being either dim or dishonest.
The cost of basing troops in Japan is greater, but Japan pays 75% of the overall cost. The US pays 25% of the overall cost.
So does the Japan station cost 4 times as much as the US station?

C'mon. You can do this. It's not hard.

Why aren't the paying 100% plus 10%?
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by twodogs » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:59 pm

strife wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:44 am
I don't believe that Trump will prove to be an isolationist.
No he is pragmatic businessman and knows the US can no longer afford to police the world. That is not isolationism.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by DCComic » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:59 pm

"Why aren't the paying 100% plus 10%?"

Dunno, and it's not the point.
The point is, would bringing them home save money?
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by twodogs » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:08 pm

DCComic wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:59 pm
The point is, would bringing them home save money?
Certainly and selling more weapons and military training around the world would certainly make some.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Logg » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:40 pm

Oh what a tedious thread. Amid all the blowhardiness, I have seen little to no evidence that removing US troops from overseas bases will save significant amounts of money, only truisms. In contrast, the people providing the numbers seem to actually show that despite the rhetoric, much of the cost is absorbed by the host nations.

There is some mention of the opportunity cost the US pays by having tens of thousands of extra soldiers in uniform overseas when they could theoretically not be in the military and instead be productive members of the civilian economy stateside.

The gist of it is that the US acts as a military power. it spends magnitudes more on defense than any other nation, which means bases, troops, weapons development, and a military culture that functions almost as its own society, with its own full-time marching bands and such.

The troops stationed overseas today are the just the tip of the Pax Americana. What gives Pax Americana its clout is not the troops abroad, but the total overall strength of the US military, and of the implicit knowledge that we will use that force if deemed needed, and of course NATO and the other treaty alliances which ensure that we will put this military might to use in defense of our allies. The trillions we spend on defense is what guarantees our clout. The actual number of troops stationed abroad is a bit of a red herring, as are the costs to Americans of boarding them there.

There is no doubt that Europe has benefitted immensely from Pax Americana. There would be no Postwar Europe success story without it. But rectifying the cosmic balance sheet, where they 'owe us' a cut from their massive postwar GDP for making it all possible isn't going to be worked out by haggling over paying a little more to house the soldiers stationed there.
twodogs wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:59 pm
strife wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:44 am
I don't believe that Trump will prove to be an isolationist.
No he is pragmatic businessman and knows the US can no longer afford to police the world. That is not isolationism.
I'm curious what your level of education is. Trump is not a pragmatic businessman, he is an unethical businessman with the attention span of a gnat. The only thing pragmatic thing he understands about the US military is that we can use it to shake down our allies for protection money.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by BulletPark » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:16 pm

And of course his piggy little brain is probably festering its way through some plan to squeeze the five-sided cashbox called the Pentagon into his own pockets.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by twodogs » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:26 pm

"What gives Pax Americana its clout is not the troops abroad, but the total overall strength of the US military, and of the implicit knowledge that we will use that force if deemed needed"

Exactly. We can accomplish anything we need by dropping a few bombs so I don't have a problem spending whatever it takes to fund the deadliest military in the world, but there is no longer a need for boots on the ground unless the host nation is willing to pay the full cost of deployment plus 10%.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Chi_Rup » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:42 pm

Because you can reach anywhere in the world in a couple of hours from the US?

Maybe that’s what Space Force is for.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by twodogs » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:50 pm

Quicker than that from a submarine.

It is a triad submarine first, then missiles, then bombers, rinse, repeat as needed.

"A nuclear triad is a three-pronged military force structure that consists of land-launched nuclear missiles, nuclear-missile-armed submarines and strategic aircraft with nuclear bombs and missiles. ... This, in turn, ensures a credible threat of a second strike, and thus increases a nation's nuclear deterrence.:
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Chi_Rup » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:19 pm

I am also curious about your level of education.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Wellpisser » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:54 pm

Godjira wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:48 am
Germany wasn’t attacked on 9-11.
Article V of the NATO Treaty says that it was

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:36 pm

twodogs wrote:
strife wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:44 am
I don't believe that Trump will prove to be an isolationist.
No he is pragmatic businessman and knows the US can no longer afford to police the world. That is not isolationism.
No he’s not, and no he doesn’t.

If that were true, he wouldn’t be putting forward one of the biggest defense budgets in history and slashing taxes.

He is actually a senile dotard saying whatever he thinks his cynical and fearful supporters believe and whatever self-aggrandizing nonsense that shallow black hole in his ego craves.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:41 pm

Wellpisser wrote:
Godjira wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:48 am
Germany wasn’t attacked on 9-11.
Article V of the NATO Treaty says that it was
Article V says it is “considered as” an attack, not that it is an actual attack.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Wellpisser » Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:17 am

To me the Amerigun view would be very simple.

Yurp has a larger population than AmeriKKKa.
Western Yurp has better welfare provision than AmeriKKKa.
The Yurpeen NATO economy is larger than AmeriKKKas
The western Yurpeen NATO states spend probably at least as much as Ameriguns do in farming subsidies and block US access to Yurpeen markets.
Yurpeens despite having more people and a larger economy expect AmeriKKKa to protect them, die for them and kill for them and many refuse to spend even the minimum 2% and would rather spend money on health and welfare.

Yurp could get away with that when there was an ideological contrast between the free west and the dictatorial communist east but I am not sure that today’s Russia actually has an ideology-I’m fairly certain that Trump doesn’t have one so I can see why he’d see NATO and Russia is wholly transactional terms.

And in a post ideological world what is in it for the USA- that is the question that I would ask if I were an Amerigun. That is not the only question I would ask of course.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Wellpisser » Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:21 am

Godjira wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:41 pm
Wellpisser wrote:
Godjira wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:48 am
Germany wasn’t attacked on 9-11.
Article V of the NATO Treaty says that it was
Article V says it is “considered as” an attack, not that it is an actual attack.
Ze Chermans considered that they had been attacked. And sent planes that could not be blown at night because of health and safety reasons, paid off the local warlords not to attack (the Italians did this to) and basically were useless.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:37 am

America could provide better welfare and healthcare if there were the political will to do it. Trump is the one looking to spend $720 billion on defense, including billions to update the nuclear arsenal and who knows how much more to create a “space force.”

He wants his cake of poor voters and to eat them too.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:59 am

twodogs wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:57 pm
Why aren't the paying 100% plus 10%?
twodogs wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:26 pm
but there is no longer a need for boots on the ground unless the host nation is willing to pay the full cost of deployment plus 10%.
Why do it even if a host country is paying 100% plus 10%?

Also is your 100% just the daily operational cost of the base?

Or does your 100% include the initial costs of constructing the base & the logistical & transportation costs of maintaining that foreign land base from the USA?

Does your 100% include the RnD costs of the weapons on that base?

Does your 100% include the training costs of the American personel on that base?

Does your 100% include the training costs of any of the host countries on the base learning to use high tech American weapons and base?

Now even if your 100% includes all the above costs ie the true total cost what about the human cost?

For example there are thousands of American troops on the DMZ and if the North Koreans attack most of them will be killed in the first 24 hours or so of a North Korean invasion. So why should young Americans die to defend a rich prosperious country with a large population like South Korea?

Even if the South Koreans were paying a 100% of the true and total cost why should the Americans be on the DMZ at all?

Why shouldn't it be only young South Koreans on the DMZ and the young Americans stationed back in America where they belong?

Even if every country in the world that had American military personel stationed on an American overseas base paid your 100% + 10% and it was the total and complete costs rather than just daily operational cost American involvement in Vietnam & Iraq & Afghanistan etc cost far more than just money.

So after the US experience of Vietnam & Iraq & Afghanistan even if every country covered 100% + 10% total and compete costs how is getting involved in more Vietnams & Iraqs & Afghanistans in the interest of the USA and ultimately worth all costs human and monetary to the USA?

As much as Smoker likes your tax dollars going to my daily security on this side of the world why not trade all these US overseas military bases for Universal Healthcare for your citizens or better education for your children or better infrastructure for your citizens yada yada yada?

Smoker has free healthcare and an USN carrier group approximately a hundred or so kilometers from me in the Gulf.

Do you have universal healthcare in the USA?

If it is finally dawning on you that you don't have universal healthcare would you like universal healthcare verses a USN carrier group in the Gulf?

Same question regarding Germany or whoever; would you rather have universal healthcare verses 50 thousand or so American soldiers stationed in Germany year after year after year decades after the end of the cold war?

So finally what is the reason not to bring the troops home and leave the Vietnams & the Iraqs & the Afghanistans & whatever regional/tribal/religious conflicts to those on the other side of the world far from America to deal with however they see fit?

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Wellpisser » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:24 am

Godjira wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:37 am
America could provide better welfare and healthcare if there were the political will to do it. Trump is the one looking to spend $720 billion on defense, including billions to update the nuclear arsenal and who knows how much more to create a “space force.”

He wants his cake of poor voters and to eat them too.
President Obama could have done this, President Clinton could have done this. US welfare and healthcare seems to be a bigger mess than Britain’s no matter who is in power. Same as Britain.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:52 am

Britain has 100 plus years head start.

The problem is that you can’t just switch to a single payer system, for example. It takes time and sacrifice. I don’t think Obama had the political will to take it on either.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:57 am

Wellpisser wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:24 am
President Obama could have done this, President Clinton could have done this...……………………………….no matter who is in power.
I generally agree! I will give George Bush Sr the benefit of the doubt since he only had one term in office and it was shortly after the fall of the USSR. It was early and there could have been a coup d'etat in Russia that brought back the Socialists or Facists or whoever. However decades later; enough is enough with the same old cold war policies and it is long past the time the American troops should be brought home from Germany etc.

However you are right about the Presidents that could have shut down overseas basis and brought the troops home and used the money saved for domerstic American interests.

I would say it is not a partisan issue but simply there hasn't been a president that has had to guts to make such a dramatic & massive break with previous foreign policy.

Clinton, Bush & Obama all could have made the move and/or choosen not to get involved in overseas regional/tribal/religious conflicts but instead all of them just maintained status quo. It doesn't matter if they were Democrat or Republican; on this issue they all failed.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Lost Soul » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:40 pm

We did close a bunch of bases across the country in the 90s in several rounds of base closures. Some of these were huge, and a direct threat to the Russkies, like Adak.

We consolidated some others into one base. Elmendorf AFB and Fort Richardson disappeared and became JBER- Joint Base Elmendorf/Richardson.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:57 pm

Of course. Bush blew the peace dividend on Iraq.

Typical right-wing idiot.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Lost Soul » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:05 pm

Bubba blew it on expanding NATO rather than reducing or eliminating it.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:18 pm

Nah. Clinton managed the economy as it transformed from defense spending based to tech based.

Bush blew it because Republicans “don’t know no better.”

Trump is doing the same shit now. By 2020 year, 25% of Americans will be uninsured, premiums will be $5000 a month for family, and North Korea and Iran will have nukes.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Lost Soul » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:20 pm

Maobama doubled our health insurance costs.

I guess we should have seen that coming when he promised to save every family $2500/yr.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:35 pm

But it would have increased by more than your BS figure and with 20% uninsured as an ideal.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Lost Soul » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:37 pm

My BS figure is an understatement.

Thanks again, Maobama.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:43 pm

The one good thing that might come from Trump is that he will probably cause healthcare costs and uninsured rates to become so high that the system will completely collapse during the recession he’s causing.

So, when the Democrat comes in during 2020, it’ll be easy to put in a single payer system.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by harry_flashman » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:33 pm

Europe has no natural external enemies. I never brought into the anti Russian thing even during the Cold War. The Soviets never had the will or the organisation to invade Western Europe and the Germans would have kicked their ass had they done loo. NATO is a bigger threat to regional peace than Russia so let’s get rid of it. Americans would be much better investing in their own countries rapidly failing infrastructure than wasting money on this anachronism, The biggest threat to Europe is both passive and home grown. Leftards prostrating themselves to all things Islamic should be our biggest concern. urban insurrection and social breakdown will be the major the source of conflict in years to come. The next stage in the islamisation of Europe will be self rule which we technically already have.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by twodogs » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:41 pm

Wellpisser wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:17 am
To me the Amerigun view would be very simple.

Yurp has a larger population than AmeriKKKa.
Western Yurp has better welfare provision than AmeriKKKa.
The Yurpeen NATO economy is larger than AmeriKKKas
The western Yurpeen NATO states spend probably at least as much as Ameriguns do in farming subsidies and block US access to Yurpeen markets.
Yurpeens despite having more people and a larger economy expect AmeriKKKa to protect them, die for them and kill for them and many refuse to spend even the minimum 2% and would rather spend money on health and welfare.

Yurp could get away with that when there was an ideological contrast between the free west and the dictatorial communist east but I am not sure that today’s Russia actually has an ideology-I’m fairly certain that Trump doesn’t have one so I can see why he’d see NATO and Russia is wholly transactional terms.

And in a post ideological world what is in it for the USA- that is the question that I would ask if I were an Amerigun. That is not the only question I would ask of course.
Nailed it. It is time for the US to stop playing world policeman.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by twodogs » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:50 pm

Smoker wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:59 am

Also is your 100% just the daily operational cost of the base? No

Or does your 100% include the initial costs of constructing the base & the logistical & transportation costs of maintaining that foreign land base from the USA? Yes

Does your 100% include the RnD costs of the weapons on that base? No we will recoup those in future weapons sales.

Does your 100% include the training costs of the American personel on that base? No

Does your 100% include the training costs of any of the host countries on the base learning to use high tech American weapons and base? Yes

Now even if your 100% includes all the above costs ie the true total cost what about the human cost? Hence the 10%

For example there are thousands of American troops on the DMZ and if the North Koreans attack most of them will be killed in the first 24 hours or so of a North Korean invasion. So why should young Americans die to defend a rich prosperious country with a large population like South Korea? No US troops as fist line of defense. We have bombs for that.

Even if the South Koreans were paying a 100% of the true and total cost why should the Americans be on the DMZ at all? Exactly

Even if every country in the world that had American military personel stationed on an American overseas base paid your 100% + 10% and it was the total and complete costs rather than just daily operational cost American involvement in Vietnam & Iraq & Afghanistan etc cost far more than just money. Can't change the past but we can learn from it.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by twodogs » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:50 pm

harry_flashman wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:33 pm
Europe has no natural external enemies. I never brought into the anti Russian thing even during the Cold War. The Soviets never had the will or the organisation to invade Western Europe and the Germans would have kicked their ass had they done loo. NATO is a bigger threat to regional peace than Russia so let’s get rid of it. Americans would be much better investing in their own countries rapidly failing infrastructure than wasting money on this anachronism, The biggest threat to Europe is both passive and home grown. Leftards prostrating themselves to all things Islamic should be our biggest concern. urban insurrection and social breakdown will be the major the source of conflict in years to come. The next stage in the islamisation of Europe will be self rule which we technically already have.
Agreed.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Moethebartender » Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:16 pm

Hairy Glitter wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:33 pm
Europe has no natural external enemies.
With the regularly scheduled genocides you lot carry out against one another, Yurp doesn't really need any external enemies.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:40 pm

twodogs wrote:
harry_flashman wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:33 pm
Europe has no natural external enemies. I never brought into the anti Russian thing even during the Cold War. The Soviets never had the will or the organisation to invade Western Europe and the Germans would have kicked their ass had they done loo. NATO is a bigger threat to regional peace than Russia so let’s get rid of it. Americans would be much better investing in their own countries rapidly failing infrastructure than wasting money on this anachronism, The biggest threat to Europe is both passive and home grown. Leftards prostrating themselves to all things Islamic should be our biggest concern. urban insurrection and social breakdown will be the major the source of conflict in years to come. The next stage in the islamisation of Europe will be self rule which we technically already have.
Agreed.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by twodogs » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:25 pm

Juche!!!
More irrational spitefulness coming from twodogs...

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:48 pm

twodogs wrote:Poverty for all except a small, fat or old elite!!!
Fixed
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Lost Soul » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:49 am

Wellpisser wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:17 am
To me the Amerigun view would be very simple.

Yurp has a larger population than AmeriKKKa.
Western Yurp has better welfare provision than AmeriKKKa.
The Yurpeen NATO economy is larger than AmeriKKKas
The western Yurpeen NATO states spend probably at least as much as Ameriguns do in farming subsidies and block US access to Yurpeen markets.
Yurpeens despite having more people and a larger economy expect AmeriKKKa to protect them, die for them and kill for them and many refuse to spend even the minimum 2% and would rather spend money on health and welfare.

Yurp could get away with that when there was an ideological contrast between the free west and the dictatorial communist east but I am not sure that today’s Russia actually has an ideology-I’m fairly certain that Trump doesn’t have one so I can see why he’d see NATO and Russia is wholly transactional terms.

And in a post ideological world what is in it for the USA- that is the question that I would ask if I were an Amerigun. That is not the only question I would ask of course.
And then there is the matter of the EU-only defense club as proposed by Mr. Juncker (or was it Mr. Fokker or Mr. Messerschmitt), promising security for all at only 1% of GNP.

Good luck, Yurp.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:02 pm

twodogs wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:50 pm
Also is your 100% just the daily operational cost of the base? No

Or does your 100% include the initial costs of constructing the base & the logistical & transportation costs of maintaining that foreign land base from the USA? Yes
Well I have never seen a study that shows the % of the costs of US overseas bases the other countries are paying that includes all the costs both present and historical. All they show is the % of the daily operational costs thus make you choice; do you want your tax dollars to continue to go overseas to pay for the defense of rich and prosperious countries or do you want your money spend in the USA on universal healthcare or education or whatever?
twodogs wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:50 pm
Does your 100% include the RnD costs of the weapons on that base? No we will recoup those in future weapons sales.

Does your 100% include the training costs of the American personel on that base? No

Does your 100% include the training costs of any of the host countries on the base learning to use high tech American weapons and base? Yes
Not unless you close down those bases and force those countries to take responsibility for their own defense you won't be selling much.
twodogs wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:50 pm
Even if every country in the world that had American military personel stationed on an American overseas base paid your 100% + 10% and it was the total and complete costs rather than just daily operational cost American involvement in Vietnam & Iraq & Afghanistan etc cost far more than just money. Can't change the past but we can learn from it.


Well Clinton, Bush & Obama never learned from it but just maintained status quo in this area of foriegn policy.

I am back in Canada and watching Trump talk about the NATO summit and thus guy is still a freaking clown but if he follows through and either everyone one ponies up the cash or the USA walks it will be the greatest change in US foreign policy since maybe the USA deciding back post WWII to build all those bases all over the world.

Like him or hate him Trump will have really done something.

BTW I am fine with Trump bailing the USA out of NATO as long as you replace it with the North American Treaty Organization.

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Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:27 pm

Trump’s NATO policy will be as successful as his North Korea and immigration policies, i.e., Three Stooges Diplomacy.

They were going to move the US bases in Japan to Guam, with the Japanese government paying for the move, but it was found to be cheaper to operate the bases in Japan than in Guam. Why? Because Japan pays all the basing costs and provides land tax and rent free.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:28 pm

North America? Trump hates you most of all, Scarecrow.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by twodogs » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:20 pm

Godjira wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:27 pm
Trump’s NATO policy will be as successful as his North Korea and immigration policies, i.e., Three Stooges Diplomacy.

They were going to move the US bases in Japan to Guam, with the Japanese government paying for the move, but it was found to be cheaper to operate the bases in Japan than in Guam. Why? Because Japan pays all the basing costs and provides land tax and rent free.
Then shut down Guam.
More irrational spitefulness coming from twodogs...

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:35 pm

Variety is the spice of life!
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:09 am

twodogs wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:20 pm
Godjira wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:27 pm
They were going to move the US bases in Japan to Guam, with the Japanese government paying for the move, but it was found to be cheaper to operate the bases in Japan than in Guam. Why? Because Japan pays all the basing costs and provides land tax and rent free.
Then shut down Guam.
Agree, there is no compelling for America to have bases in either Japan or Guam so shut them all down and bring the troops home so you can spend the money in the USA on whatever you wish from universal healthcare to education to whatever.

Warmest Regards, Smoker
ben_hanscombe wrote:You're such a fucking cunt, Smoker. A really revolting piece of shit.

VinnyD wrote:She was over nine, she was a very mature nine-year-old

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:37 am

There’s no compelling reason? LOL.

You’ll get a lot more money by taxing the rich more.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by muthafunky » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:05 am

DCComic wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:44 am
Andrea1 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:42 am
I wonder how many of the military voted for Trump?
Armed forces tend to be poorly educated dyed in the wool conservatives.
So, most of them.
More people in the military have college degrees than the general population and many more have high school diplomas than the general population.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by harry_flashman » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:34 am

As long as NATO is there the Russians will feel a duty to respond to it. I can’t help feeling that much of Putins popularity is down down to the West’s demonisation of Russia. Let’s get rid of NATO and normalise our relationship with the former Soviet Union. You catch more flies with honey. Use the World Cup as a springboard to normalise our relationship with Russia and pull out the rug from under Trump.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:55 am

Yeah. Who cares if Putin murders people in the UK.
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