Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by strife » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:16 am

Lost Soul wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:58 pm
Yes they do. As does Canada, Norway and Poland.

The rest of the leeches are raping Daddy, as per usual.
The Poles, oddly for Europeans, actually like us, and Norway needs a strong defence against Russia. Canada has always cooperated, since they were the flight path for Soviet ICBMs.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Lost Soul » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:23 am

Yes, Poland likes us. Being stuck forever between your two mortal enemies has that effect.

Greece is armed up thanks to the Turks. That is a blood feud. And once we leave Tayyipistan, which will be soon, it will rear ugly again.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by misanthrope » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:46 am

strife wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:16 am
Lost Soul wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:58 pm
Yes they do. As does Canada, Norway and Poland.

The rest of the leeches are raping Daddy, as per usual.
The Poles, oddly for Europeans, actually like us, and Norway needs a strong defence against Russia. Canada has always cooperated, since they were the flight path for Soviet ICBMs.
They all have strategic interests. The Poles will hate us as much as the Germans in 10 years.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by DCComic » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:53 am

The Poles hate Russia. That will wast at least a generation and I don’t send any reason for a future change.
Norway’s Russian border barely troubles them. The Finns have a history to consider.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:58 am

I’m not sure if it’s a matter of liking the US, it’s a matter of having the will or means to increase spending. Germany is on track to meet the 2%.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by misanthrope » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:15 am

The US should pull out of Germany yesterday. Talk about a waste of money...

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:26 am

misanthrope wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:15 am
The US should pull out of Germany yesterday. Talk about a waste of money...

Are you willing to go to Afghanistan to replace a German troop stationed there via NATO?
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by eric84 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:35 am

Godjira wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:26 am
misanthrope wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:15 am
The US should pull out of Germany yesterday. Talk about a waste of money...

Are you willing to go to Afghanistan to replace a German troop stationed there via NATO?
Seriously. If the us wants to spend less on defence, nothing has stopped them from doing so. That’s not the west’s fault.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by twodogs » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:42 am

Godjira wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:05 am
But, they all sent troops to Afghanistan when we needed them.
When Afghanistan needed them.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by twodogs » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:47 am

eric84 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:35 am
Seriously. If the us wants to spend less on defence, nothing has stopped them from doing so. That’s not the west’s fault.
100% correct.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by eric84 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:53 am

I wonder why trump wanted more money than even defence asked for? Strange isolationist stance.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by misanthrope » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:59 am

Godjira wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:26 am
misanthrope wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:15 am
The US should pull out of Germany yesterday. Talk about a waste of money...

Are you willing to go to Afghanistan to replace a German troop stationed there via NATO?
At 45? I don't think so. But the forces in Afghanistan were largely token.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by misanthrope » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:00 am

eric84 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:35 am
Godjira wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:26 am
misanthrope wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:15 am
The US should pull out of Germany yesterday. Talk about a waste of money...

Are you willing to go to Afghanistan to replace a German troop stationed there via NATO?
Seriously. If the us wants to spend less on defence, nothing has stopped them from doing so. That’s not the west’s fault.
It might soon be the west's problem - hopefully, anyway.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by misanthrope » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:00 am

eric84 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:53 am
I wonder why trump wanted more money than even defence asked for? Strange isolationist stance.
I don't understand that either.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by eric84 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:02 am

Not really. If trumpiedoodle wants to undermine the wes by continuing to play footsie with Russia. The west has already written amerikkka off. I’m sure you’re deliriously happy.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by eric84 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:03 am

misanthrope wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:00 am
eric84 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:53 am
I wonder why trump wanted more money than even defence asked for? Strange isolationist stance.
I don't understand that either.
You think trumpiedoodle is following a coherent plan. He isn’t.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Annotated » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:04 am

Trump is not necessarily an isolationist. He's "America first."

That's a different thing.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by misanthrope » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:09 am

Annotated wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:04 am
Trump is not necessarily an isolationist. He's "America first."

That's a different thing.
WHat does that mean in this context?

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:12 am

misanthrope wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:59 am
Godjira wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:26 am
misanthrope wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:15 am
The US should pull out of Germany yesterday. Talk about a waste of money...

Are you willing to go to Afghanistan to replace a German troop stationed there via NATO?
At 45? I don't think so. But the forces in Afghanistan were largely token.
Tell that the the parents of the German troops killed there.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by eric84 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:14 am

It means if Latvia gets invaded by russia, he wouldn’t reapond despite what the nato charter says. Guaranteed
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Annotated » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:15 am

misanthrope wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:09 am
Annotated wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:04 am
Trump is not necessarily an isolationist. He's "America first."

That's a different thing.
WHat does that mean in this context?
It means the situation dictates, but no more doing what others should be doing.

America will not pull Europe's weight anymore.

We will help. It's in our interest. But Europe has to put on their big boy pants, pony up, and saddle up.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by misanthrope » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:26 am

Godjira wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:12 am
misanthrope wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:59 am
Godjira wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:26 am



Are you willing to go to Afghanistan to replace a German troop stationed there via NATO?
At 45? I don't think so. But the forces in Afghanistan were largely token.
Tell that the the parents of the German troops killed there.
It's a weak, emotive argument that you could make if a single soldier was killed there. If it was up to me, the west wouldn't have a presence there at all. 2254 US troops have been killed in Afghanistan. That is 50 times the number. The US isn't 50 times larger in population than Germany.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:48 am

Germany wasn’t attacked on 9-11.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by strife » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:58 am

DCComic wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:53 am
The Poles hate Russia. That will wast at least a generation and I don’t send any reason for a future change.
Norway’s Russian border barely troubles them. The Finns have a history to consider.
Finland isn't strategically important, and isn't a NATO member anyway. Norway has enormous strategic importance, and they hate the Russians.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by DCComic » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:55 am

Sweden thinks Finland is strategically important.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:32 am

BulletPark wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:43 pm
As an American taxpayer I'm picking up a vast international bill - and largely, I have no problem with that. I'd rather my money went to starving orphans in Darfur than completely and utterly worthless parasites like you, but I accept that a few bloated blood-drinking ticks on the dog are inevitable.
Well that is great BulletPark the generous loser because what are a few starving orphans in Darfur compared to Smoker, Oil Billionaires, the population of Europe, rich and prosperious South Korea & the rest of us enjoying your tax dollars picking up the tab for our defense.

BTW how is that universal healthcare in the States coming along?

Hey BulletPark the American sucker, thanks for your tax dollars paying for our universal healthcare!

Warmest Regards, Smoker
Last edited by Smoker on Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:39 am

flojin wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:21 pm
I'm all for moving our troops home.
Then for once in your life stop being a partisan puppet and admit Trump's isolationism is right.
flojin wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:21 pm
You, on the other hand, were an enormous supporter of the invasion of Iraq and you accuse anyone who was opposed to it of "loving Saddam."
Of course it was in my interest to have the US engaged in the Middle East.

And if I lived in Germany I would be all for the US troops stationed in Germany and NATO & the rest of it because I have a vested interest in universal healthcare.

But I would still like to see if at least one partisan puppet on politicalstew can overcome their brainwashing and even though he is not your person be honest enough to admit Trump's isolation is right.

Warmest Regards, Smoker
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by strife » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:44 am

I don't believe that Trump will prove to be an isolationist.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:47 am

misanthrope wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:12 pm
I'm an isolationist. What you are describing is a dream to me.
It was a dream under Clinton, Bush & Obama and clown or not at least right now under Trump American isolationism has a least a shot but until then thanks for your tax dollars paying for other's defense & universal healtcare.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:28 am

strife wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:44 am
I don't believe that Trump will prove to be an isolationist.
Maybe or maybe not but regardless isolationism is such a monumental change in US foreign policy that even if Trump decided to make it the defining issue of his presidency how could he accomplish that when even the people for isolationism on an anonymous internet board can't admit they support Trump's isolationism because it is Trump saying, sponsoring and pushing for it?

Of course if it was their person that had the guts to say "enough is enough your own defense is now your responsiblitity and we are taking the troops home and spending the money on the USA" the partisan puppets would all be for isolationism.

Trump's Isolationism is only bad because Trump is the one taking about it. Classic it is not the act that is good or bad but whether my person does it.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by CatScanMan » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:27 am

If KGB Trump wants to throw away American influence then fine.

Europe will be fine since it had economy and population multiples larger than Russia.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by flojin » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:15 pm

Smoker wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:39 am
flojin wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:21 pm
You, on the other hand, were an enormous supporter of the invasion of Iraq and you accuse anyone who was opposed to it of "loving Saddam."
Of course it was in my interest to have the US engaged in the Middle East.
Ridiculous. You went from claiming that opponents of the Iraq war loved Saddam to now claiming that our position was correct, but that you only supported the invasion out of self interest. You've completely reversed your position because Trump is against the invasion. You're the partisan puppet.

This is what you said about me and other Americans who are against the US projecting military force all over the place:
Oh look boys n girls another couple “Save Our Saddam” flag wavers that thinks their folk hero Saddam is Tito when the reality is Saddam was a freakish combo of mostly Stalin with a sprinkling of Hitler and a dash of Ivan the Terrible.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:47 pm

flojin wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:15 pm
You've completely reversed your position because Trump is against the invasion.
Wrong! I wanted America engaged in the Middle East because it was in my self interest since I live here.
flojin wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:15 pm
You're the partisan puppet.
Wrong! It is irrelevant to me who is the US President between Clinton/Bush/Obama as long as they keep the USN carrier group in the Gulf providing my daily security and your taxes paying for it.
flojin wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:15 pm
This is what you said about me and other Americans who are against the US projecting military force all over the place:
Oh look boys n girls another couple “Save Our Saddam” flag wavers that thinks their folk hero Saddam is Tito when the reality is Saddam was a freakish combo of mostly Stalin with a sprinkling of Hitler and a dash of Ivan the Terrible.
Yes of course I want the USA projecting military power to regional/tribal/religious conflicts on the other side of the world because I am "currently" on the other side of the world.

Again it is irrelevant to me regarding US foreign policy who is US President between Clinton/Bush/Obama since they all just follow the status quo foreign policy of active engagement in regional/tribal/religious conflicts.

The last thing I want as long as I live on the other side of the world is an isolationist President which makes Trump pretty scary for me.

However in a few days my interest will no longer be the USN carrier group in the Gulf but still that said I would like to say thanks to US Presidents Clinton/Bush/Obama & your tax dollars for two decades of America citizens paying for my daily security.

BTW I have free healthcare in the UAE so how it that universal healthcare coming along for you in the USA?

Thanks again US Presidents Clinton/Bush/Obama & flojin the American taxpayer!

Warmest Regards, Smoker
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:54 pm

CatScanMan wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:27 am
If KGB Trump wants to throw away American influence then fine.
I guess it depends if this so called "American influence" is worth billions of US taxpayer money and worth putting thousands of young Americans in harms way on the other side of the world.
CatScanMan wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:27 am
Europe will be fine since it had economy and population multiples larger than Russia.
Sure after all Europe was so proactive the last time in the 1990s when mass graves were being filled with bodies on European soil in the Balkans.

But hey you are rich prosperous countries that should be responsible for your own defense so everyone should be cool with that.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by DCComic » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:58 pm

US defence is a massive workfare scheme. If he brings all those bodies back from wherever they still have to be housed, fed and watered.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:04 pm

DCComic wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:58 pm
If he brings all those bodies back from wherever they still have to be housed, fed and watered.
Hahaha! OK lets just skip the "being in a warzone" part and just ask the money question.

So do you think it will be cheaper for America to "housed, fed and watered" those young Americans on the other side of the world or in their hometown stateside?

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:17 pm

I guess it depends on how much the host country pays. They found that the basing costs were cheaper when keeping the bases in Japan than to moving them to Guam, which was the plan 10 years ago. Anyway, it looks like Trump F-ed up in North Korea, so I doubt even the remains of soldiers from 65 years ago will be coming home anytime soon.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by DCComic » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:19 pm

Smoker wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:04 pm
DCComic wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:58 pm
If he brings all those bodies back from wherever they still have to be housed, fed and watered.
Hahaha! OK lets just skip the "being in a warzone" part and just ask the money question.

So do you think it will be cheaper for America to "housed, fed and watered" those young Americans on the other side of the world or in their hometown stateside?

Warmest Regards, Smoker
Depends how the subsidies from the host countries offset the extra cost of them being overseas.
Germany isn't really a warzone. Nor is Japan.

" in 2004, Japan provided direct support of $3.2 billion (about ¥366 billion) and indirect support worth $1.18 billion, offsetting as much as 74.5 percent of the total cost."

Maybe keeping a soldier in a US barracks is only 25% as costly as keeping him in Japan. Maybe its less. Maybe it's more. The thing is that the money the US spends on him overseas is not the amount they will have to play with if they bring him home.

I thought you did numbers.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Smoker » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:46 pm

DCComic wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:19 pm
Depends how the subsidies from the host countries offset the extra cost of them being overseas.
Regardless why have young Americans in harms way on the other side of the world verses the young citizens of the country that wants American responsible for it's defense?
DCComic wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:19 pm
Germany isn't really a warzone. Nor is Japan.
Hahaha! Yes that is (part) of the point. Why have thousands and thousands of young Americans in the Military stationed in rich countries like Germany, Japan, South Korea when there isn't any war and these prosperious independent countries should be responsible for their own defense?
DCComic wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:19 pm
Maybe keeping a soldier in a US barracks is only 25% as costly as keeping him in Japan. Maybe its less. Maybe it's more. The thing is that the money the US spends on him overseas is not the amount they will have to play with if they bring him home.
DCComic wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:19 pm
I thought you did numbers.
Yes I do so stop which might be why unlike you I am not pretending to be a willfully obtuse moron so stop being that and just think about the logistics.

Just ignore all other factors and consider only the transportation cost in time & ships/airplanes/other equipment & fuel maintaining thousands of young American spread all over the world and some in very remote places with poor infrastructure verses having everyone state side.

Then after you finish thinking about just the logistics then you can think about the total human/material/treasure/emotional etc cost to the American people of Vietnam, Iraqi, Afghanistan & whatever conflict and then ask yourself what you think America is missing out on if you bring those young Americans home and let the other countries oceans away from you be responsible for their own participation in their local regional/tribal/religious conflict?

Too easy!

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by DCComic » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:54 pm

If America wants to stop invading countries on paper-thin or invented pretexts to save itself a load of money and lives I'm sure the world won't object. But you were talking about Germany, which is not harm's way.

You're not a linear thinker, are you? Your scatterbrained approach is confusing you.

If you can show me data that says the 75% cost that Japan pays for the US troops stationed there isn't sufficient to cover the expense in excess of keeping them in an American base, you'll have a point. Until then you're blowing smoke, as per.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by BulletPark » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:58 pm

1. I didn't realize that every single country the US had a base in was a warzone.

2. I didn't realize that a relatively stable globe was bad for the US in terms of social and economic interests both short and long term.

3. I didn't realize that the army, navy, etc. paid no wages and provided no training or post-military career skills and benefits.

4. I didn't realize that every penny of military spending went straight into Smoker's pockets and the A-rabs whose cocks he gulps down like a bitch as opposed to American companies providing services and supplies and to the aforementioned training and benefits, including the GI bill.

5. I did know that Smoker was an annoying stupid piece of shit who can shove his warm regards (the constant repetition of which makes him sound a bit like Mr. Rogers) up the well-lubed hole of his choosing but I didn't realize he was planning on celebrating his great wealth by living in a van down by the river.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Lost Soul » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:06 pm

Godjira wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:48 am
Germany wasn’t attacked on 9-11.
Only an idiot would assert that.

Western Civilization was attacked.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Lost Soul » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:11 pm

BulletPark wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:58 pm
1. I didn't realize that every single country the US had a base in was a warzone.

2. I didn't realize that a relatively stable globe was bad for the US in terms of social and economic interests both short and long term.

3. I didn't realize that the army, navy, etc. paid no wages and provided no training or post-military career skills and benefits.

4. I didn't realize that every penny of military spending went straight into Smoker's pockets and the A-rabs whose cocks he gulps down like a bitch as opposed to American companies providing services and supplies and to the aforementioned training and benefits, including the GI bill.

5. I did know that Smoker was an annoying stupid piece of shit who can shove his warm regards (the constant repetition of which makes him sound a bit like Mr. Rogers) up the well-lubed hole of his choosing but I didn't realize he was planning on celebrating his great wealth by living in a van down by the river.

/themoreyouknow
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:18 pm

Lost Soul wrote:
Godjira wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:48 am
Germany wasn’t attacked on 9-11.
Only an idiot would assert that.

Western Civilization was attacked.
Oh, well, that’s ridiculous, but if so, better stay in NATO.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:21 pm

The US troops I used to hang out with from
Fussa when I lived out in west Tokyo were all working in support of Afghanistan, not defending Japan.

And, considering that Western Civilization was attacked on 9-11, it was important to take out Al Qaeda and the Taliban.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by BulletPark » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:22 pm

The ramping back of the US presence globally is inevitable. Whether this is a Good Thing is to be debated.

Smoker's idea that it's all a con is laughable.

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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Godjira » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:23 pm

Smoker is laughable.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by strife » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:23 pm

Resentniks gonna resent.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by Lost Soul » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:24 pm

Godjira wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:18 pm
Lost Soul wrote:
Godjira wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:48 am
Germany wasn’t attacked on 9-11.
Only an idiot would assert that.

Western Civilization was attacked.
Oh, well, that’s ridiculous, but if so, better stay in NATO.
There is no point when Germany fails to pay and floods their country with bombers.

Also, defending Lithuania is the essence of stupidity. Even if they paid.
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Re: Will Europe Stand Up if America Stands Down?

Post by strife » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:25 pm

BulletPark wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:22 pm
The ramping back of the US presence globally is inevitable. Whether this is a Good Thing is to be debated.
Yes. Whether a Pax Sinica would be a better order is dubious though.
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