Union Fees Now Optional

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Union Fees Now Optional

Post by Lavite » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:29 pm

Another win for freedom! Just imagine how many more brilliant decisions like this will come out of the U.S. Supreme Court once President Trump puts a few more conservative judges on it. Life is good.


Article...

The Supreme Court’s decision today in Janus v. AFSCME is a win for the free-speech rights of government employees. Now citizens who choose to serve the public can no longer be compelled to pay fees to a private expressive organization that exists to influence government policy on matters of public importance. Mark Janus, for example, works as a child support specialist for Illinois, and he was concerned about Illinois’ fiscal crises. Despite his views on government spending and the proper size of government, he was compelled to pay about $535 per year to a private entity, the American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees, to support the union’s collective-bargaining efforts, efforts intended to directly affect the state budget and the provision of governmental services. As a result of the court’s decision today, employees like Janus will now have more choices — more liberty — concerning what speech they support (and what they do with that $535). They will have the freedom to opt in to pay the fees and so to continue to give money to the union, so that the union in turn may continue to lobby the government to adopt policies that the opting-in employees support (such as higher wages for public employees or increased tenure protections for teachers). Or public employees can instead contribute that money to a different organization that lobbies for different policies (such as merit pay for teachers). Or they can choose not to spend the money on any lobbying at all. But they won’t be forced by the government to subsidize the speech of a private organization with which they disagree.

http://www.scotusblog.com/2018/06/sympo ... ch-rights/
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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by coffeeguy » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:39 pm

Great win for freeloaders who like someone else to pay for the benefits they receive. The union and its members do the lifting to get reasonable wages, yet a freeloader gets to opt out of paying for it. But hey that's the conservative way, let someone else pay.

Course this is nothing about 'freedom' and all about union busting, soon all of working class America will have low wages like right to work states like Alabama while the rich get richer.

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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by cuchulainn » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:46 pm

60 years of conservative policies and Alabama is still a third world shithole.


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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by twodogs » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:29 pm

MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) — Japanese automakers Toyota and Mazda on Wednesday announced plans to build a huge $1.6 billion joint-venture plant in Alabama that will eventually employ about 4,000 people.

Several states had competed for the coveted project, which will be able to turn out 300,000 vehicles per year and will produce the Toyota Corolla compact car for North America and a new small SUV from Mazda. Alabama Gov. Kay Ivey and company executives held a joint news conference to announce that the facility is coming to the Huntsville area not far from the Tennessee line. Production is expected to begin by 2021.

"This is indeed a great day in Alabama," Ivey said. "Thank you for believing in the potential of our people in the great state of Alabama. ... Toyota and Mazda, thank you so much. Welcome to sweet home Alabama."
More irrational spitefulness coming from twodogs...

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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by Citizen Baba » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:32 pm

Freedom now means being a freeloader.

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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by twodogs » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:38 pm

Citizen Baba wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:32 pm
Freedom now means being a freeloader.
Freedom now means you no longer have to fund political agendas that are contrary to yours. My guess is more leftists will opt out of paying dues than conservatives.
More irrational spitefulness coming from twodogs...

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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by Citizen Baba » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:41 pm

twodogs wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:38 pm
Citizen Baba wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:32 pm
Freedom now means being a freeloader.
Freedom now means you no longer have to fund political agendas that are contrary to yours. My guess is more leftists will opt out of paying dues than conservatives.
Funny, I thought by quoting me, you were going to somehow contradict my point. You didn't.

That said, I worked at a majority-black institution that funded their union without the dues being mandatory.

They should come out with a two-tiered system: a collective bargaining contract for union members, and whatever the employer wants to give the freeloaders.

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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by cuchulainn » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:56 pm

Alabama is competing with third world countries for unskilled labor.

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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by guruwil » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:57 pm

We will be sorry when they are gone.

Unions have been responsible for some of the greatest advances in health and safety and economic development in history. Those who think they are now redundant will regret it when they are gone. Life will be cheaper, economic disparity will be greater and economic growth will be harmed.

You mark my words.
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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by twodogs » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:13 pm

Unions did more to make America Great than President Trump ever will.

By increasing wages and reducing hours, unions created the need for companies to innovate, automate and become more competitive.

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More irrational spitefulness coming from twodogs...

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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by eric84 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:20 pm

From what I've heard, there aren't a lot of these workers so not a huge impact. Most of them have been convinced to join by unions who knew they had to prepare for this moment.
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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by DCComic » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:22 pm

Am a fan of unions but was never comfortable with closed shops.
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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:29 pm

The closed shop has been illegal in the United States since 1947.

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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by dBrother » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:32 pm

Citizen Baba wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:41 pm
twodogs wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:38 pm
Citizen Baba wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:32 pm
Freedom now means being a freeloader.
Freedom now means you no longer have to fund political agendas that are contrary to yours. My guess is more leftists will opt out of paying dues than conservatives.
Funny, I thought by quoting me, you were going to somehow contradict my point. You didn't.

That said, I worked at a majority-black institution that funded their union without the dues being mandatory.

They should come out with a two-tiered system: a collective bargaining contract for union members, and whatever the employer wants to give the freeloaders.
In Australia unionism had been voluntary for decades, last real job I had in pilbara FIFO construction was union award $40 an hour plus overtime, plus $5 an hour site allowance, plus further nightshift penalty rates and then some extras ect..

Hardly anyone was in the union, but we all still got the union (AWU) negotiated rates.

They even paid some of us out $10K on one job to re~sign a new contract as we signed for 3 weeks on one off but the union stipulated 4;1s for that site, so they still held some power even if most people weren't members , abd everyone still followed the union workplace conditions.

I seriously can't explain the politics that wernt on behind all that, but the money was there..

I'd have joined if I felt it was the thing to do, but at the same time wasnt interested in biting the hand that feeds, being my employer..
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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by Citizen Baba » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:35 pm

My old man used to represent meat cutters who moved to Alabama for the "right to work" for $5/hour. Fast forward 30 years and Alabama is still one of the most impoverished states with one of the lowest labor force participation rates, while Maryland is still one of the wealthiest.

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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by coffeeguy » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:05 pm

twodogs wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:29 pm
MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) — Japanese automakers Toyota and Mazda on Wednesday announced plans to build a huge $1.6 billion joint-venture plant in Alabama that will eventually employ about 4,000 people.

Several states had competed for the coveted project, which will be able to turn out 300,000 vehicles per year and will produce the Toyota Corolla compact car for North America and a new small SUV from Mazda. Alabama Gov. Kay Ivey and company executives held a joint news conference to announce that the facility is coming to the Huntsville area not far from the Tennessee line. Production is expected to begin by 2021.

"This is indeed a great day in Alabama," Ivey said. "Thank you for believing in the potential of our people in the great state of Alabama. ... Toyota and Mazda, thank you so much. Welcome to sweet home Alabama."
Alabama provided a $1billion dollars in subsidies to get that plant. Remember when you right wing types were against corporate welfare?

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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by section8 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:21 pm

I remember when conservatives thought capitalism was the preferred economic system.
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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by kirrabi » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:09 pm

State worker unions can go fuck themselves. If only members could see to it their dues went to the political candidates of their choice w/o being intimidated by a gang of soyboys and bugmen.
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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by Godjira » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:36 pm

Just imagine how much more could have been done if Roy Moore had won!
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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by VinnyD » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:45 am

twodogs wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:38 pm
Citizen Baba wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:32 pm
Freedom now means being a freeloader.
Freedom now means you no longer have to fund political agendas that are contrary to yours. My guess is more leftists will opt out of paying dues than conservatives.
No money from the agency fees that were required in some places until this week could go to political activities. The agency fees were lower than union dues; they covered only activities like collective bargaining and representing employees in grievance proceedings. The unions wer required to sort out their budget for political activities and reduce the agency fees accordingly.

The unions will still be bargaining on behalf of all employees and will still be required to represent all employees in grievance proceedings, whether they are members or freeloaders.

You didn't try at all to inform yourself on this subject before posting, did you?

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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by DCComic » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:51 am

VinnyD wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:29 pm
The closed shop has been illegal in the United States since 1947.
How were people compelled to pay union fees after that?
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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by VinnyD » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:00 am

There may be a transatlantic difference in vocabulary. Here a "closed shop"is one in which you must already be a union member in order to be employed there. A "union shop" is one in which you must join the union after a certain period of employment. Closed shops have been illegal throughout the country since 1947. Union shops are legal in a minority of states and illegal in a majority. In the states in which they are illegal, you can't be compelled to pay union fees.

The case being discussed had to do with public employee unions (state, county, and municipal workers). In some states (not most) there was the arrangement I described above. That is now illegal. Federal employees have never been required to pay union fees.

twodogs didn't know any of this.

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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by DCComic » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:10 am

In the UK a closed shop was a workplace where every employee was required to be a union member.
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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by Lost Soul » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:17 pm

This was a silver stake through the heart of the public sector unions.

Die already, assholes.
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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by coffeeguy » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:02 pm

Lost Soul wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:17 pm
This was a silver stake through the heart of the public sector unions.

Die already, assholes.
While this is indeed a major blow to unions (and the Democrats who they provide funding to, which is really what this is about if you look at where the funding for the case came from), the unions have been expecting this ruling for quite a while. They will channel funding into retention and recruiting activities and with the aholes that run right wing politics these days, I suspect they will have a compelling argument to make on their value to the average worker worrying about his job and pay. Militant unions are the product of reaping what you sow. and I suspect that the opt out freeloaders will be noted by their colleagues who they are pretty quickly and treated accordingly.

I'm not a public union supporter or for that matter any of them, but I've had to deal with unions alot and in most cases they are way more clever and strategic than management. Yes they will lose members, but I suspect they will adapt pretty well all things considered.

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Union Fees Now Optional

Post by cuchulainn » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:34 pm

Lost Soul wrote:This was a silver stake through the heart of the public sector unions.

Die already, assholes.

Says the loyal toady of plutocrats.

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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by Lost Soul » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:36 pm

Death to your pensions, teat sucker.
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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by Lavite » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:28 pm

Some employees want their money back in past dues. One article I read said it could cost the unions in California over a $100 million, if the lawsuits are successful.

Article....

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (CN) – In the aftermath of a landmark Supreme Court decision barring employee unions from extracting mandatory fees from workers who do not want to contribute, two government employees sued their union to get back the money they were forced to pay.

It is one of the first cases of its kind to emerge in the wake of Janus v. AFSCME, handed down by the nation’s highest court June 27.

Lead plaintiffs Jeff Lyon and Karen Sandberg filed the class action in Sacramento County Superior Court on Tuesday, saying they were due restitution for the agency fees paid to the Union of California State Workers over the course of their careers.

“Millions if not billions of dollars have been exacted from nonmembers in California alone,” the plaintiffs say in the complaint. “Through this action, plaintiffs and those similarly situated seek to recover those fees that should never have been taken from them in the first place.”

Lyon worked for the California Department of General Services from 2001 until 2014, paying as much as $40 a month in agency fees to the union despite not being a member.

Sandberg worked for the state in various positions and for various departments over the course of a long career in public service from 1989 through 2015.

Sandberg did not belong to any union but paid as much as $90 a month in agency fees to the state workers union.

“By this action, plaintiffs seek restitution of all involuntarily paid agency fees from the defendant unions, with interest, for themselves and for all others similarly situated,” the pair says in their complaint.

They are represented by Eric George of Browne George Ross in Los Angeles.

The Janus decision was celebrated as a triumph of free speech by the victors, who argued forcing nonmembers to pay dues is an unconstitutional violation of their rights.

The court ultimately agreed 5-4, along ideological lines.

Leading up to and after the decision, labor advocates have expressed worry that working Americans will be hurt and the clout of unions will be diminished.

https://www.courthousenews.com/state-wo ... us-ruling/

“In this case, a bare majority of the court, over the vigorous dissent of four justices, has conceded to the dark web of corporations and wealthy donors who wish to take away the freedoms of working people,” AFL-CIO President Richard Trumka said after the decision was handed down.

The Union of California State Works, also known as SEIU 1000, did not respond to requests for comment as of press time.
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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by cowtown » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:50 pm

Breaking Unions will help ‘win’ the trade war with Chian, now we can match them on labor costs
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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by flojin » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:24 pm

With no unions or EPA we'll be able to hire workers for nothing and dump the sludge into the river. Boom times ahead!
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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by vanceen » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:41 pm

If eliminating mandatory dues means that we end up with no unions, it would be clear that they weren't seen by employees as adding much value.

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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by eric84 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:06 pm

vanceen wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:41 pm
If eliminating mandatory dues means that we end up with no unions, it would be clear that they weren't seen by employees as adding much value.
That, or the state and employers puts up large enough barriers to prevent unionization even if employees see value in them.
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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by birdlite » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:10 pm

flojin wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:24 pm
With no unions or EPA we'll be able to hire workers for nothing and dump the sludge into the river. Boom times ahead!
Remember we are dumping OSHA regs too so the low paid workers can die of toxic exposure and then be dumped into the river,

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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by vanceen » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:13 pm

eric84 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:06 pm
vanceen wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:41 pm
If eliminating mandatory dues means that we end up with no unions, it would be clear that they weren't seen by employees as adding much value.
That, or the state and employers puts up large enough barriers to prevent unionization even if employees see value in them.
I haven't heard of any state employers doing that. Unless I'm mistaken, that would be illegal. I would certainly be against it.

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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by eric84 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:29 pm

vanceen wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:13 pm
eric84 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:06 pm
vanceen wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:41 pm
If eliminating mandatory dues means that we end up with no unions, it would be clear that they weren't seen by employees as adding much value.
That, or the state and employers puts up large enough barriers to prevent unionization even if employees see value in them.
I haven't heard of any state employers doing that. Unless I'm mistaken, that would be illegal. I would certainly be against it.
Not state employers. Employers using threats to prevent unionization and the state/government passing 'right to work' laws that discourage unionization. That does happen.
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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by vanceen » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:53 pm

eric84 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:29 pm
vanceen wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:13 pm
eric84 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:06 pm


That, or the state and employers puts up large enough barriers to prevent unionization even if employees see value in them.
I haven't heard of any state employers doing that. Unless I'm mistaken, that would be illegal. I would certainly be against it.
Not state employers. Employers using threats to prevent unionization and the state/government passing 'right to work' laws that discourage unionization. That does happen.
This ruling applies to government employees, I believe.

And as I said, I'm pretty sure that employers making threats to prevent unionization would be against the law.

As far as right to work laws, we disagree. If employees choose to work collectively to strengthen their position with their employees, that's great. Denying someone employment because they don't want to be part of it is another thing.

I made my comment as a reply to remarks on this thread about unions disappearing. This thread is about the SC ruling, which relates to mandatory dues for government employees. My point was that if the unions disappear because dues aren't mandatory for those who don't wish to participate, then they can't have been perceived as adding much value, otherwise employees who want the unions would make sure they are funded. I really wasn't addressing all possible forces that might discourage or encourage unionization.

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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by eric84 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:15 pm

vanceen wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:53 pm
eric84 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:29 pm
vanceen wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:13 pm


I haven't heard of any state employers doing that. Unless I'm mistaken, that would be illegal. I would certainly be against it.
Not state employers. Employers using threats to prevent unionization and the state/government passing 'right to work' laws that discourage unionization. That does happen.
This ruling applies to government employees, I believe.

And as I said, I'm pretty sure that employers making threats to prevent unionization would be against the law.

As far as right to work laws, we disagree. If employees choose to work collectively to strengthen their position with their employees, that's great. Denying someone employment because they don't want to be part of it is another thing.

I made my comment as a reply to remarks on this thread about unions disappearing. This thread is about the SC ruling, which relates to mandatory dues for government employees. My point was that if the unions disappear because dues aren't mandatory for those who don't wish to participate, then they can't have been perceived as adding much value, otherwise employees who want the unions would make sure they are funded. I really wasn't addressing all possible forces that might discourage or encourage unionization.
Yes, I'm just pointing out there are more important forces that will impact unionization including employee tactics and labour law. Mandatory dues isn't really a major factor.
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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by VinnyD » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:15 pm

eric84 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:29 pm
vanceen wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:13 pm
eric84 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:06 pm


That, or the state and employers puts up large enough barriers to prevent unionization even if employees see value in them.
I haven't heard of any state employers doing that. Unless I'm mistaken, that would be illegal. I would certainly be against it.
Not state employers. Employers using threats to prevent unionization and the state/government passing 'right to work' laws that discourage unionization. That does happen.
Eric, what this decision did in effect was impose a right to work law with respect to government workplaces (not federal, where the law was that way already), whether the state wanted it or not. It has no effect on private sector employees.

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Re: Union Fees Now Optional

Post by Wellpisser » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:47 am

DCComic wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:22 pm
Am a fan of unions but was never comfortable with closed shops.
Ditto. Funnily enough my sister had occasion to seek assistance from her union just yesterday.

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