Is China Losing the Trade War?

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by eric84 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:06 pm

twodogs wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:13 pm
eric84 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:12 pm
None of that is relevant to the point that what trumpiedoodle is doing on tariffs is far worse than obama. I’m not sure why you can’t bring yourself to agree with that rather obvious point.
Not far worse, far grander.

Obama did it piecemeal President Trump knows the US has the highest hand and is playing it to the hilt. The US can produce far more than it consumes. now that taxes and regulations have been reduces we are witnessing companies from all over the globe rushing to build plants in the US so they can gain access to the largest market in world.

It is sad that our closest neighbors do not want to be part of this so.....

Good luck and may the best economy win.
A grander strategy isn’t a better one. This magical leverage you imagine hasn’t deterred China, the riot Canada to retaliate so your calculations were dead wrong. The economy will suffer because of his grand strategy.
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by twodogs » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:52 pm

Citizen Baba wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:00 pm
Trade barriers make domestic industries more efficient. Who knew?

No they only guarantee a domestic source just like Canadian dairy and Japanese rice.

This is not about ending trade it is about improving trade agreements. Every country can survive without trade, but trade makes lives better. President Trump wants fair trade agreements. Some countries have agreed and some have not.

This is just business and may the best economy win.
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by Citizen Baba » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:56 pm

Why guarantee a domestic source in return for inefficiency and economic stagnation?

The basic economic logic is removing or reducing trade barriers improves the economy of the country that does it, regardless of what other countries do. See Singapore and Hong Kong.

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by Citizen Baba » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:57 pm

And, yeah, North Korea and Eritrea are doing great without much trade.

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by twodogs » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:58 pm

eric84 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:06 pm
A grander strategy isn’t a better one. This magical leverage you imagine hasn’t deterred China, the riot Canada to retaliate so your calculations were dead wrong. The economy will suffer because of his grand strategy.
China, like the US, has a large domestic market so they will do fine with minimal impact. Most countries will be okay with the exception of a few countries with small domestic markets who depend on exports for a large percentage of their GDP and all they have to do is cut a deal with the US.

This isn't the end of the world, it is business. Good luck and may the best economy win.
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by twodogs » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:00 pm

Citizen Baba wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:56 pm
Why guarantee a domestic source in return for inefficiency and economic stagnation?
It works for Canadian dairy and Japanese rice.
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by twodogs » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:02 pm

Citizen Baba wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:57 pm
And, yeah, North Korea and Eritrea are doing great without much trade.
Those countries do not have 18 trillion dollar domestic markets. The US does.
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by Citizen Baba » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:03 pm

twodogs wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:02 pm
Citizen Baba wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:57 pm
And, yeah, North Korea and Eritrea are doing great without much trade.
Those countries do not have 18 trillion dollar domestic markets. The US does.
Yeah, they don’t have large domestic markets because of juche. You have it ass backwards.

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by Citizen Baba » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:04 pm

China was much better off in the 60s according to this logic.

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by twodogs » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:09 pm

Citizen Baba wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:04 pm
China was much better off in the 60s according to this logic.
Not in the least. China manipulated currency and used protectionism to get where they are today and the US is merely following their lead. We have the protectionism down now we just need to start printing money in the form of QE. 100 billion a month should do it.
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by eric84 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:16 pm

twodogs wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:58 pm
eric84 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:06 pm
A grander strategy isn’t a better one. This magical leverage you imagine hasn’t deterred China, the riot Canada to retaliate so your calculations were dead wrong. The economy will suffer because of his grand strategy.
China, like the US, has a large domestic market so they will do fine with minimal impact. Most countries will be okay with the exception of a few countries with small domestic markets who depend on exports for a large percentage of their GDP and all they have to do is cut a deal with the US.

This isn't the end of the world, it is business. Good luck and may the best economy win.
14 million jobs in the us are dependent on nafta.
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by Higgs Bossom » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:27 pm

How many jobs in Canada are dependent on nafta?

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by Citizen Baba » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:30 pm

twodogs wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:09 pm
Citizen Baba wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:04 pm
China was much better off in the 60s according to this logic.
Not in the least. China manipulated currency and used protectionism to get where they are today and the US is merely following their lead. We have the protectionism down now we just need to start printing money in the form of QE. 100 billion a month should do it.
Yes, and China greatly expanded international trade. Juche didn't

What would printing money accomplish?

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by coffeeguy » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:39 pm

twodogs wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:58 pm
eric84 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:06 pm
A grander strategy isn’t a better one. This magical leverage you imagine hasn’t deterred China, the riot Canada to retaliate so your calculations were dead wrong. The economy will suffer because of his grand strategy.
China, like the US, has a large domestic market so they will do fine with minimal impact. Most countries will be okay with the exception of a few countries with small domestic markets who depend on exports for a large percentage of their GDP and all they have to do is cut a deal with the US.

This isn't the end of the world, it is business. Good luck and may the best economy win.
Ridiculous, I shake my head at how little you know about the world economy. Do you realize that 33 percent of revenues of American Fortune 500 come from outside the US? The whole world trading system has been set up to benefit US corporations and you morons want to rip it up.

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by Higgs Bossom » Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:12 pm

And what is good for corporations, especially large multinational corporations, is good for people & workers in general? Is that the argument? Because from Donald Trump to Bernie Sanders a whole bunch of people doubt that. Now Hilary Clinton & Mitt Romney would agree, but the last time I looked they both lost.

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by Citizen Baba » Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:26 pm

Higgs Bossom wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:12 pm
And what is good for corporations, especially large multinational corporations, is good for people & workers in general? Is that the argument? Because from Donald Trump to Bernie Sanders a whole bunch of people doubt that. Now Hilary Clinton & Mitt Romney would agree, but the last time I looked they both lost.
No, but cheaper, more efficiently made goods are cheaper for consumers.

But, hey, the two major pieces of legislation Trump passed so far: tax cuts for corporations and rich people (in exchange for more debt for everyone) and financial deregulation. Using your logic, those issues seem to be winners.

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by eric84 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:15 pm

Higgs Bossom wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:27 pm
How many jobs in Canada are dependent on nafta?
5 million. We will get hurt more but why would that make you feel better? Trumpiedoodle logic I guess
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by Higgs Bossom » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:30 pm

Citizen Baba wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:26 pm
Higgs Bossom wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:12 pm
And what is good for corporations, especially large multinational corporations, is good for people & workers in general? Is that the argument? Because from Donald Trump to Bernie Sanders a whole bunch of people doubt that. Now Hilary Clinton & Mitt Romney would agree, but the last time I looked they both lost.
No, but cheaper, more efficiently made goods are cheaper for consumers.

But, hey, the two major pieces of legislation Trump passed so far: tax cuts for corporations and rich people (in exchange for more debt for everyone) and financial deregulation. Using your logic, those issues seem to be winners.
Are they? Well shit! Sign me up to subsidize Walmart even more then! Mo' stuff cheap! I love being a consumer! In fact, since cheap are so important why not just put Amazon & Walmart in charge of running the country since citizenship has been distilled down to nothing more than being a consumer.

I remember when our elected representatives called their constituents citizens. Only in the last 20 years, it seems, did the preferred nomenclature become consumers. That was bipartisan too. Perhaps that is the problem. I think it is. I am certainly more than just a consumer. I assume you are too.

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by twodogs » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:05 pm

eric84 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:15 pm
5 million. We will get hurt more but why would that make you feel better? Trumpiedoodle logic I guess
This could all go away if Canada agrees to a 5 year sunset clause and allows open access to Canadian markets. In exchange Canada gets access to an even larger market. Seems like a good deal to me.
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by Citizen Baba » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:06 pm

twodogs wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:05 pm
eric84 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:15 pm
5 million. We will get hurt more but why would that make you feel better? Trumpiedoodle logic I guess
This could all go away if Canada agrees to a 5 year sunset clause and allows open access to Canadian markets. In exchange Canada gets access to an even larger market. Seems like a good deal to me.
What would printing money accomplish?

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by mad hatter » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:08 pm

you mean issuing more debt?
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by twodogs » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:24 pm

Citizen Baba wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:06 pm
What would printing money accomplish?
Hopefully reduce the value of the dollar. Even if all trade barriers are removed the US exports are still at a disadvantage due to the strong dollar. Maybe we should tie it to CDN or the Peso.
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by twodogs » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:35 pm

Canada is joining with the EU to put tariffs on Chinese steel and apparently this is somehow America's fault.

"The Canadian government is taking measures to thwart a potential flood of steel imports as a result of global exporters trying to avoid U.S. tariffs, according to a Bloomberg News story.

Citing "people familiar with the plan," the story says those proposed measures include quotas and tariffs aimed at certain countries, including China. The potential move follows in the footsteps of the European Union's decision to ward off dumping of steel that would have been sent to the U.S. Although not finalized, the announcement could come as early as next week, Bloomberg said."
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by Higgs Bossom » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:45 pm

So it is ok for Chinese to dump cheap steel in the US, but if it is going to Canada then tariffs & quotas are ok as a response? Am I correctly understanding the above post?

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by mad hatter » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:06 pm

Higgs Bossom wrote:So it is ok for Chinese to dump cheap steel in the US, but if it is going to Canada then tariffs & quotas are ok as a response? Am I correctly understanding the above post?
well duh. of course.
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by twodogs » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:27 pm

Higgs Bossom wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:45 pm
So it is ok for Chinese to dump cheap steel in the US, but if it is going to Canada then tariffs & quotas are ok as a response? Am I correctly understanding the above post?
Exactly. Canadian industry is entitled to protection from unfair foreign competition, US industry is not.

Also EU industry is entitled to protection from unfair foreign competition, US industry is not.

It' a global thing, most Americans wouldn't understand.
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by eric84 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:38 pm

twodogs wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:05 pm
eric84 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:15 pm
5 million. We will get hurt more but why would that make you feel better? Trumpiedoodle logic I guess
This could all go away if Canada agrees to a 5 year sunset clause and allows open access to Canadian markets. In exchange Canada gets access to an even larger market. Seems like a good deal to me.
No, it would cause more harm to us. It’s been explained to several times
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by twodogs » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:46 pm

eric84 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:38 pm
No, it would cause more harm to us. It’s been explained to several times
I cannot see how gaining free access to a market ten times larger than Canada's is a bad deal. Certainly the US is more productive in most industries but there are commodities and niche markets that Canada can still excel. Australia does pretty well by just exporting natural resources.
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by Higgs Bossom » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:57 pm

It's not enough that the US taxpayer has shouldered the burden to defend Europe & Canada for decades, but they should also carry water for them economically, too?

Eric, why is it ok for Canada to impose tariffs on Chinese steel but not the US?

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by mad hatter » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:58 pm

BECAUSE.
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by mad hatter » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:59 pm

Trudeau is nice. Trump is evil. And NRA and Iraq. OK?
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by twodogs » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:04 pm

Higgs Bossom wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:57 pm
Eric, why is it ok for Canada to impose tariffs on Chinese steel but not the US?
Fair question.
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by coffeeguy » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:11 pm

Higgs Bossom wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:57 pm
It's not enough that the US taxpayer has shouldered the burden to defend Europe & Canada for decades, but they should also carry water for them economically, too?

Eric, why is it ok for Canada to impose tariffs on Chinese steel but not the US?
The US should impose tariffs on Chinese steel, and hold them to account for their closed markets. The US has 1/2 a trillion dollar trade deficit with China. Now that Chinese steel is priced out of the US market, th Chinese will look elsewhere to dump their surplus, that is why Canada and the EU have imposed tariffs. As a consequence for the US action. Are you too stupid to understand this? The US runs a trade surplus with Canada, that should tell you the trade relationship is fair.

Meanwhile the US has imposed tariffs on Canada for steel where it sells more to Canada than Canada sells to the US. Canadian steel is no threat to the US, the tariffs are just pure protectionism. Again are you too stupid to understand this?

As for defence spendIng, neither Canada nor the EU has asked for US to spend trillions on Defense. That’s the crazy decisiOn of your country. If you want to blow your wad on weapons instead of looking after your people, well that’s your choice. Yeah maybe your dumbasses for doing it, but we’ve not forced you.

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by Citizen Baba » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:54 pm

Citizen Baba wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:30 pm
twodogs wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:09 pm
Citizen Baba wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:04 pm
China was much better off in the 60s according to this logic.
Not in the least. China manipulated currency and used protectionism to get where they are today and the US is merely following their lead. We have the protectionism down now we just need to start printing money in the form of QE. 100 billion a month should do it.
Yes, and China greatly expanded international trade. Juche didn't

What would printing money accomplish?

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by twodogs » Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:21 pm

coffeeguy wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:11 pm
As for defence spendIng, neither Canada nor the EU has asked for US to spend trillions on Defense. That’s the crazy decisiOn of your country. If you want to blow your wad on weapons instead of looking after your people, well that’s your choice. Yeah maybe your dumbasses for doing it, but we’ve not forced you.
Agreed and I honestly think the world will be better off when the US closes all of it's bases around the world. Most south american nations have gotten along just fine without the US military.
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by Higgs Bossom » Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:31 pm

coffeeguy wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:11 pm
Higgs Bossom wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:57 pm
It's not enough that the US taxpayer has shouldered the burden to defend Europe & Canada for decades, but they should also carry water for them economically, too?

Eric, why is it ok for Canada to impose tariffs on Chinese steel but not the US?
The US should impose tariffs on Chinese steel, and hold them to account for their closed markets. The US has 1/2 a trillion dollar trade deficit with China. Now that Chinese steel is priced out of the US market, th Chinese will look elsewhere to dump their surplus, that is why Canada and the EU have imposed tariffs. As a consequence for the US action. Are you too stupid to understand this? The US runs a trade surplus with Canada, that should tell you the trade relationship is fair.
So you agree that tariffs are an appropriate & legitimate response or tactic when trade is not engaged in on the up & up? Trump thanks you for agreeing with him.

Don't tell the boys down at the club, though.

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by coffeeguy » Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:38 pm

twodogs wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:21 pm
coffeeguy wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:11 pm
As for defence spendIng, neither Canada nor the EU has asked for US to spend trillions on Defense. That’s the crazy decisiOn of your country. If you want to blow your wad on weapons instead of looking after your people, well that’s your choice. Yeah maybe your dumbasses for doing it, but we’ve not forced you.
Agreed and I honestly think the world will be better off when the US closes all of it's bases around the world. Most south american nations have gotten along just fine without the US military.
We’ve discussed this before and I think we will need to agree to disagree. The last 80 years of world prosperity and the dramatic increase in standard of living has been due to largely to the US’s leadership in the world. The defeat of communism and support of western style world wide and the primary role the US has played has resulted in the world beIng better off in history than it ever has been before. A retreat of the US from the world stage would leave a vacuum to be filled by forces not nearly as benevolent. Do you really bele Be that that world would be a better place with China or Russia or ISIS in charge?

And in return for its leadership, the US gained access to world markets that allowed its companies to prosper. All of the major international agencies were set up to support American interests and the US has benefited mightily from them.

This streak of isolationism and victim mode that trump has propagated, is against the facts on the ground and ignores history. Remember what happened last time the US went isolationist. That misguided policy was paid for with the blood of millions.

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by coffeeguy » Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:41 pm

Higgs Bossom wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:31 pm
coffeeguy wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:11 pm
Higgs Bossom wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:57 pm
It's not enough that the US taxpayer has shouldered the burden to defend Europe & Canada for decades, but they should also carry water for them economically, too?

Eric, why is it ok for Canada to impose tariffs on Chinese steel but not the US?
The US should impose tariffs on Chinese steel, and hold them to account for their closed markets. The US has 1/2 a trillion dollar trade deficit with China. Now that Chinese steel is priced out of the US market, th Chinese will look elsewhere to dump their surplus, that is why Canada and the EU have imposed tariffs. As a consequence for the US action. Are you too stupid to understand this? The US runs a trade surplus with Canada, that should tell you the trade relationship is fair.
So you agree that tariffs are an appropriate & legitimate response or tactic when trade is not engaged in on the up & up? Trump thanks you for agreeing with him.

Don't tell the boys down at the club, though.
No, that’s not what I said. His war on liberalized economies like EU or Canada is nothing but the tact Few of a cheap bully looking for a press release. China is a whole other ball of wax

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by twodogs » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:41 am

coffeeguy wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:38 pm
We’ve discussed this before and I think we will need to agree to disagree. The last 80 years of world prosperity and the dramatic increase in standard of living has been due to largely to the US’s leadership in the world. The defeat of communism and support of western style world wide and the primary role the US has played has resulted in the world beIng better off in history than it ever has been before. A retreat of the US from the world stage would leave a vacuum to be filled by forces not nearly as benevolent. Do you really bele Be that that world would be a better place with China or Russia or ISIS in charge?

And in return for its leadership, the US gained access to world markets that allowed its companies to prosper. All of the major international agencies were set up to support American interests and the US has benefited mightily from them.

This streak of isolationism and victim mode that trump has propagated, is against the facts on the ground and ignores history. Remember what happened last time the US went isolationist. That misguided policy was paid for with the blood of millions.
Great post Coffeeguy. Thank you. The US did some good and some bad and should have disengaged after the Soviet Union dissolved. I believe it is inevitable and right that China assume leadership of the world and that they will be as good or better at it than the US.

International agencies have both helped and hurt the US and we are at a point in time when the US at least no longer needs them.

President Trump is not an isolationists he is a pragmatic businessman that believes past trade agreements are unfair and is doing what he can to change that. Certainly there will be more wars and the US should always maintain an arsenal capable of destroying any enemy, anywhere at anytime but we can do that without boots on the ground. The US can no longer be expected to impoverish future generations of Americans for the safety of other countries.
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by Smoker » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:31 am

twodogs wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:00 pm
Citizen Baba wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:56 pm
Why guarantee a domestic source in return for inefficiency and economic stagnation?
It works for Canadian dairy and Japanese rice.
And for American sugar.

That is the problem twodogs, it works for those above special interest groups but not for the far larger group of ordinary consumers.

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by Smoker » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:36 am

twodogs wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:24 pm
Citizen Baba wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:06 pm
What would printing money accomplish?
Hopefully reduce the value of the dollar. Even if all trade barriers are removed the US exports are still at a disadvantage due to the strong dollar. Maybe we should tie it to CDN or the Peso.
Do you really want to kick off a currency war since that worked so well in the 1930s?

You know that decade when something called THE GREAT DEPRESSION happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_war

Protectionism didn't work when Obama did it and it won't suddenly get a different result when Trump does it.

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by Godjira » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:38 am

It doesn’t work for Japanese rice.

Rice is ridiculously expensive here and modes of production horribly outdated.
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by Smoker » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:53 am

Godjira wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:38 am
It doesn’t work for Japanese rice. Rice is ridiculously expensive here and modes of production horribly outdated.
It does work for Japanese rice if you are the special interest domestic rice dude but like Obama's tariffs & Trump's protectionism and whoever's whatever it doesn't work for the far larger group of ordinary consumers that want the best rice at the best price.

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by Godjira » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:03 am

Or Reagan’s tariffs either.
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by Smoker » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:05 am

coffeeguy wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:38 pm
Remember what happened last time the US went isolationist. That misguided policy was paid for with the blood of millions.
Which I expect will happen again in the "death by a thousand cuts" of dozens of region/tribal/religious conflicts breaking out all over the place except for North America.

However I expect everyone fighting each other won't make the mistake Japan did and sneak attack the USA or what Hitler did and declare war on the USA.

In all likelihood the USA (& the rest of North America) will sit out all those conflicts Oceans away behind Trump's Great Wall of America selling weapons to both sides and with no American body bags coming from overseas.

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by Smoker » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:09 am

twodogs wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:41 am
I believe it is inevitable and right that China assume leadership of the world and that they will be as good or better at it than the US.
Are you being sarcastic?

Usually the only people on politicalstew that are stupid enough to believe this are few America hating Australians; I think Flobster is a big fan of when China will take over global leadership from America the Great Satan.

All you have to do to kill this myth of the American bashers is get a map of China and on the border at each of China's neighbors in turn (maybe start with Tibet) and remember all the "trouble for the neighbors" China has been involved in since the commies took over.

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by Godjira » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:11 am

Article from 1988 on Protectionist Reagan.
TAGS Free MarketsMonopoly and Competition

05/01/1988Sheldon L. Richman
The Free Market 6, no. 5 (May 1988)



Mark Shields, a columnist for the Washington Post, recently wrote of President Reagan's "blind devotion to the doctrine of free trade." If President Reagan has a devotion to free trade, it must be blind because he has been way off the mark. In fact, he has been the most protectionist president since Herbert Hoover.

Admittedly, his rhetoric has been confusing. In 1986 Reagan said, "Our trade policy rests firmly on the foundation of free and open markets. I recognize. . . the inescapable conclusion that all of history has taught: the freer the flow of world trade, the stronger the tides of human progress and peace among nations."

But he advocated protectionism early in his 1980 campaign, saying to the U.S. auto industry: "Japan is part of the problem. This is where government can be legitimately involved. That is, to convince the Japanese in one way or another that, in their own interests, that deluge of cars must be slowed while our industry gets back on its feet..."

When he imposed a 100% tariff on selected Japanese electronic products for allegedly "dumping" computer memory chips, he said he did it "to enforce the principles of free and fair trade." And Treasury Secretary James A. Baker has boasted about the protectionist record: Reagan "has granted more import relief to U.S. industry than any of his predecessors in more than half a century."

It's true that the administration has fought with protectionists in Congress, but only over who should have the power to restrict trade. As Reagan put it, "It's better policy to allow for presidents—me or my successors—to have options for dealing with trade problems."

Defenders of the Reagan policies will say that he has engaged in protectionism to open foreign markets. But they cannot deny that one-quarter of all imports are today restricted, a 100% increase over 1980.

Nor are foreign markets more open. The Reagan administration talks about exporting free enterprise, but in fact it has exported economic intervention to Japan, South Korea, and other nations.

When the United States imposes import quotas or pressures a foreign government to do so, a compulsory cartel must arise in the exporting country, since its government will assign the quotas among private firms and administer the system. Ronald Reagan has forced nations that export textiles, apparel, sugar, steel, and other products to cartelize these industries.

Can trade restrictions open foreign markets? The use of government power to regulate trade is more likely to produce conflict of which American consumers and exporters become the victims. It is also naive, because it ignores the political pressure to maintain existing restrictions. The United States, for example, could impose new limits on Japanese autos to force Japan to accept beef exports from Iowa. But, as syn­dicated columnist Stephen Chapman asks, "Does anyone be­lieve that when Japan starts buying Iowa beef, Ford and Chrysler will stop trying to keep out Japanese cars?"

Considering our own intricate web of trade restrictions, it is sanctimonious for the U.S. government to lecture others about opening their markets. It might be in a better position to make demand~ if it first stripped our economy of those re­strictions. But wouldn't we be giving up bargaining chips? Yes. But the objective is not to negotiate; it is to enjoy the benefits of productivity and the international division of labor. The bonanza of unconditional free trade would be so great for the United States that it would set a good example for the rest of the world.

The value of free trade does not depend on open markets abroad. It is good for the nation that practices it, regardless of what others do. The purpose of an economic system is not to produce jobs or sell products abroad. Those are means. The end is satisfaction of our material wants. Free trade is good because our standard of living depends on how easily we can get the products and services we want.

One is led to ask: with free-traders like this, who needs protectionists?

The administration has thus far:

Forced Japan to accept restraints on auto exports;
Tightened considerably the quotas on imported sugar;
Negotiated to increase the restrictiveness of the Multi­fiber Arrangement governing trade in textiles and apparel;
Required 18 countries, including Brazil, Spain, South
Korea, Japan, Mexico, South Africa, Finland, Australia, and the European Community, to accept "voluntary re­straint agreements" that reduce their steel imports to the United States;
Imposed a 45% duty on Japanese motorcycles for the ben­efit of Harley Davidson, which admitted that superior Japanese management was the cause of its problems;
Raised tariffs on Canadian lumber and cedar shingles;
Forced the Japanese into an agreement to control the price of computer memory chips;
Removed third-world countries on several occasions from the duty-free import program for developing nations;
Pressed Japan to force its automakers to buy more Ameri­can-made parts;
Demanded that Taiwan, West Germany, Japan, and Switzerland restrain their exports of machine tools;
Accused the Japanese of dumping roller bearings on grounds so that the price did not rise to cover a fall in the value of the yen;
Accused the Japanese of dumping forklift trucks and color picture tubes;
Extended quotas on imported clothes pins;
Failed to ask Congress to end the ban on the export of Alaskan oil and timber cut from federal lands;
Redefined dumping so domestic firms can more easily charge foreign competitors with unfair trade practices;
Beefed-up the Export-Import Bank, an institution dedicated to distorting the American economy at the ex­pense of the American people in order to artificially pro­mote exports of eight large corporations.
The World Bank estimates that import restrictions in 1984 had the same effect as a 66% income tax surcharge on Amer­ica's poorest citizens. Less obvious is the harm to American producers, who lose exports and pay more for capital goods because of protectionism. For example, everyone, including the beleaguered American auto industry, has to pay more for steel because of the Reagan administration's restrictions on imports. Even the steel industry is hurt because artificially high prices stimulate the search for alternative materials.

President Reagan missed a unique opportunity to begin freeing the American economy from the shackles of trade re­strictions. He need not have given the American people a technical lesson in economics. He could have said that free trade requires no more justification than domestic economic freedom; indeed, it requires no more justification than the traditional American values of a humane and open society.
https://mises.org/library/ronald-reagan-protectionist
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by twodogs » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:54 pm

A lot has changed since the 80's. The US is no longer dependent on foreign oil. Taxes and regulations have been lowered and companies from around the globe are building factories in the US to gain access to world's largest economy.

Will soybean farmers have to plant something else, maybe. Will inefficient companies like Harley Davidson fail, of course. Will other industries grow, certainly.

A few of the tariffs will have to be rescinded until the US ramps up domestic production or finds a country willing to trade fairly. Not really a big issue for the world's largest market especially once the infrastructure building begins.

This isn't war, its' business and may the best economy win.
More irrational spitefulness coming from twodogs...

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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by Godjira » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:18 pm

Donald Trump will make America what it once was: a vast swamp filled with giant lizards.
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Re: Is China Losing the Trade War?

Post by Citizen Baba » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:23 pm

twodogs wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:54 pm
A lot has changed since the 80's. The US is no longer dependent on foreign oil. Taxes and regulations have been lowered and companies from around the globe are building factories in the US to gain access to world's largest economy.
Yeah, in the 80s, manufacturing was a much bigger percentage of our GDP. You don't need a factory here to gain access to the market.

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