FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

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Moethebartender
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Moethebartender » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:21 am

Usher73 wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:33 am
leela wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:58 am
Vinny likes to tell nationals of countries that aren't his, about their own countries. I'm really not sure why he does this. I can only think that he thinks we're very ignorant.

The above was a particularly egregious example, though.
This thread was started with a post telling nationals of a country not the OP's about their own country.

If everyone stopped doing that, Talk Politics could be shut down.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by leela » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:42 pm

Vinny, I commented on the video of something that happened in your country, and had opinions on what I saw. That is not the same as telling someone a very obvious fact about his own country. I think you know that.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Lost Soul » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:56 pm

leela wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:42 pm
Vinny, I commented on the video of something that happened in your country, and had opinions on what I saw. That is not the same as telling someone a very obvious fact about his own country. I think you know that.
Are you allowed to assault the police in your country?
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by muthafunky » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:01 pm

Actually, you told us how police are trained in the US and what American opinion is on these incidents. You definitely didn’t just comment on what you saw in the video.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by dBrother » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:07 pm

Kilombo wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:44 pm

Gibraltar should be part of Spain
Why?
It's been part of the UK for far longer than it was ever a part of Spain.

And the inhabitants identify as British not Spanish .
.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinnyD » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:24 pm

His point is that the SAS were law enforcement officers who should have arrested the criminals and not unlawfully killed them.
Not exactly. My point was that the UK principles on the use of force in law enforcement that leela quoted are fine, just as are the principles that govern the use of force in the US. But in both countries, those principles are not always observed in practice. Gibraltar was a particularly egregious example, but there have been others. I would have used the shooting of the Brazilian guy if I had thought of it.

Whether the majority of the residents of a place are happy with law enforcement officers ignoring the principles is irrelevant.

Leela quoted the principles by way of saying "Why can't you be more like us?" But in fact we are like you in having decent policies, and we are like you in not always putting those policies into practice.

So apparently you misunderstood my point, Stephen.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinnyD » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:32 pm

dBrother, Gibraltar has never been part of the United Kingdom.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by shunter » Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:30 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:24 pm
His point is that the SAS were law enforcement officers who should have arrested the criminals and not unlawfully killed them.
Not exactly. My point was that the UK principles on the use of force in law enforcement that leela quoted are fine, just as are the principles that govern the use of force in the US. But in both countries, those principles are not always observed in practice. Gibraltar was a particularly egregious example, but there have been others. I would have used the shooting of the Brazilian guy if I had thought of it.

Whether the majority of the residents of a place are happy with law enforcement officers ignoring the principles is irrelevant.

Leela quoted the principles by way of saying "Why can't you be more like us?" But in fact we are like you in having decent policies, and we are like you in not always putting those policies into practice.

So apparently you misunderstood my point, Stephen.
Why is either the Gibraltar killings or the Mendez killing egregious examples?
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinnyD » Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:38 pm

OK, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe UK law enforcement shoot unarmed people without warning all the time.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by shunter » Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:43 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:38 pm
OK, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe UK law enforcement shoot unarmed people without warning all the time.


No they don’t but there’s no issue with shooting someone without warning under certain circumstances. When Mende was shot we were all going about our normal business in the knowledge there were people out there trying to blow us up. It’s a strange feeling to be sitting in a tube train knowing terrorists who tried to blow up a tube are out there. No Boston style lockdown for us. Of course there was no warning shouted - it would have been crazy to do that.

I really don’t see what point you have - you’re arguing for the sake of it.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinnyD » Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:52 pm

This is what leela said were the core questions to be asked when a law enforcement officer in the UK is considering the use of force:
Core questions
a) would the use of force have a lawful objective (eg, the prevention of injury to others or damage to property, or the effecting of a lawful arrest) and, if so, how immediate and grave is the threat posed?

b) are there any means, short of the use of force, capable of attaining the lawful objective identified?

c)having regard to the nature and gravity of the threat, and the potential for adverse consequences to arise from the use of force (including the risk of escalation and the exposure of others to harm) what is the minimum level of force required to attain the objective identified, and would the use of that level of force be proportionate or excessive?
I think they could have stopped both the Brazilian guy and the IRA people by shouting "Stop!"

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by korgy » Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:07 pm

leela wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:58 am
Vinny likes to tell nationals of countries that aren't his, about their own countries. I'm really not sure why he does this. I can only think that he thinks we're very ignorant. The above was a particularly egregious example, though.
i really don't see what the problem is in stating facts about someone's else's country if they are relevant to the discussion, even if another poster is from the country in question. actually, i have noticed that often outsiders have more objective views than nationals do of their own countries.

and yes, given the fact that you obviously posted a video and have continuously commented about what you see is a problematic situation in the US, it does seem rather hypocritical.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by shunter » Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:13 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:52 pm
This is what leela said were the core questions to be asked when a law enforcement officer in the UK is considering the use of force:
Core questions
a) would the use of force have a lawful objective (eg, the prevention of injury to others or damage to property, or the effecting of a lawful arrest) and, if so, how immediate and grave is the threat posed?

b) are there any means, short of the use of force, capable of attaining the lawful objective identified?

c)having regard to the nature and gravity of the threat, and the potential for adverse consequences to arise from the use of force (including the risk of escalation and the exposure of others to harm) what is the minimum level of force required to attain the objective identified, and would the use of that level of force be proportionate or excessive?
I think they could have stopped both the Brazilian guy and the IRA people by shouting "Stop!"
That’s ridiculous.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinnyD » Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:27 pm

What makes you think those unarmed people would not have stopped when armed people shouted "Stop!" at them?

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinnyD » Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:31 pm

Leela, if you don't think you told anyone about the USA in this thread, maybe you should reread your posts.

And Stephen's comments made no sense given the fact that Thatcher was PM at the time, which is why i mentioned that obvious fact. It was a more polite way of saying "You're not making sense."

Shunter, I don't know the answer to this question; perhaps you do. If the three IRA members had been able to surrender to the SAS, and had done so, would the SAS have had the authority to arrest them? Or did they only have the authority to shoot them?

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Jim-2012 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:53 pm

The other day my neighbor told me about what happened in 1870 here in the US which is rather unthinkable today.
There was an Irish gang that called themselves the "Molly McGuires." They were caught committing some crimes and the group went to trial. The ethnic English who were in charge of the government chose non-English speaking Germans for the jury. The group was found guilty and one of them was sentenced to hang. The defense team wanted the conviction overturned because of the unfairness of having jurors who didn't understand English. They were not successful in having the convictions overturned, and the man was hanged.
Could this happen today in the USA?
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by shunter » Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:58 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:27 pm
What makes you think those unarmed people would not have stopped when armed people shouted "Stop!" at them?
Maybe they would have, maybe they wouldn’t. If the authorities believe that there is imminent risk of loss of life they’re entitled to use lethal force without warning. Same everywhere I should think.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinnyD » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:02 pm

No, here the belief has to be reasonable.

Jim, sometimes people tell you things that aren't completely true.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by shunter » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:04 pm

The act based on the belief or the belief itself? Self defence requires the act to be reasonable, not the belief itself.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Jim-2012 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:07 pm

Jim, sometimes people tell you things that aren't completely true.
Vinny, do you know the real story about the Molly McGuires in the US?
If you do, please regale us with the truth.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinnyD » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:13 pm

I don't see how an act based on an unreasonable belief ("My voices told me that he was Adolf Hitler and was about to blow up the world") can be reasonable.

This is what Wikipedia says: "In the U.S., the general rule is that "[a] person is privileged to use such force as reasonably appears necessary to defend him or herself against an apparent threat of unlawful and immediate violence from another."

In the two cases we are talking about, I think the principles leela quoted required the law enforcement officers to do something along the lines of shouting "Stop!" If the suspects didn't stop, or reached into their waistbands or the like, deadly force might have been justified.

Jim, have you tried googling?

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by shunter » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:21 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:13 pm
I don't see how an act based on an unreasonable belief ("My voices told me that he was Adolf Hitler and was about to blow up the world") can be reasonable.

This is what Wikipedia says: "In the U.S., the general rule is that "[a] person is privileged to use such force as reasonably appears necessary to defend him or herself against an apparent threat of unlawful and immediate violence from another."
Your quote is what I said - the act has to be reasonable not the belief on which you act.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by shunter » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:24 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:13 pm

In the two cases we are talking about, I think the principles leela quoted required the law enforcement officers to do something along the lines of shouting "Stop!" If the suspects didn't stop, or reached into their waistbands or the like, deadly force might have been justified.

No that’s incorrect. It’s possibke that the IRA could have been stopped at a different point and it certain that Mendez should not have been allowed to get on the tube, but under the circumstances it was reasonable to kill them without warning.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Jim-2012 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:10 pm

Vinny, I found this:
The year of 1876 saw a series of Molly trials and convictions. Arrested by private policeman and prosecuted by mining and railroad company attorneys, the trials, in the words of historian Harold Aurand, "marked one of the most astounding surrenders of sovereignty in American history." Aurand notes that the state's role in the proceeding was limited to providing "the courtroom and hangman." Another troubling feature of the trials was the systematic exclusion of Irish Americans from juries. In the entire series of Molly trials, not a single Irish American was empaneled on a jury. Instead, the fate of the Mollys was decided largely by German immigrants, many of whom admitted to understanding English only poorly.
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/f ... count.html
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Usher73 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:25 pm

From the History Channel website, about Bonnie and Clyde

May 23, 1934
... just before dawn, a posse of police officers from Texas and Louisiana laid an ambush along the highway near Sailes, Louisiana. When Parker and Barrow appeared, going some 85 mph in another stolen Ford–a four-door 1934 Deluxe with a V-8 engine, the officers let loose with a hail of bullets, leaving the couple no chance of survival despite the small arsenal of weapons they had with them.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinnyD » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:27 pm

That quote is accurate as far as I know, Jim.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by korgy » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:24 pm

Vinny, seems to me what Jim had written in his first reference to the Molly Maguires trials was mostly true.

why did you write
Jim, sometimes people tell you things that aren't completely true.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinnyD » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:41 pm

Because someone had told him something that wasn't completely true, as you acknowledge.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Jim-2012 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:50 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:41 pm
Because someone had told him something that wasn't completely true, as you acknowledge.
Vinny, what was untrue in my first post? Was it because I said 1870 instead of 1876?
If so, you really are PEDANTIC.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by korgy » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:00 pm

Vinny, i would have to agree with Jim here, and you could just answer what it is exactly it is that was untrue enough for you to respond "Jim, sometimes people tell you things that aren't completely true" instead of with these silly games. some of us expect better of you, Vinny.

as is always, you seem more interested in word game puzzles than any sort of more interesting and important truth.

what exactly is untrue enough that you would respond with that, and why wont you share it with us if you feel it is important?
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by SeamusMcCool » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:39 pm

Vinny you sound like a fool arguing the SAS are law enforcement. The rules of engagement In the theatre of war are not the same as police engaging civilians. Get off it already your constant pestering of Shunted and others from an ignorant pov is highly irritating.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by shunter » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:58 pm

Vinny can go and read all about it on wiki - if he was genuinely interested in learning as opposed to being annoying.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinnyD » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:00 pm

It isn't true that none of the jury spoke English, Jim.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinnyD » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:00 pm

Tell me about how the UK treated IRA captives as prinsoners of war, Seamus.

I had the imoression they were tried and sentenced as criminals, the ones who got trials, that is.

Stephen correctly said above that the Thatcher government regarded the IRA as criminals, not enemy combatants.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Jim-2012 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:12 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:00 pm
It isn't true that none of the jury spoke English, Jim.
Would you like to be judged by a jury that only understood English poorly?
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinnyD » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:20 pm

No. I think the Molly Maguires, like most labor activists until the FDR administration, were screwed over by the state, which acted in that case more or less as an arm of the coal companies. In fact it let the coal companies usurp its role to a large extent.

You may have missed the word "completely" in my first post on the subject.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by SeamusMcCool » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:05 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:00 pm
Tell me about how the UK treated IRA captives as prinsoners of war, Seamus.

I had the imoression they were tried and sentenced as criminals, the ones who got trials, that is.

Stephen correctly said above that the Thatcher government regarded the IRA as criminals, not enemy combatants.
What Thatcher said and what actually happened are two different things. The use of the SAS is your first clue. The treatment of captive IRA as criminals was politics.
There's an excellent book called, Big Boys Rules I suggest you read it sometime.

It was a theatre of war and Thatcher was not the only PM during those 30 years.

Comparing SAS rules of engagement against a para military force to US law enforcement with civilians is idiotic.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinnyD » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:15 pm

Let's go back to what I said that started this.

Leela quoted the principles that govern the use of force by UK police. I said that US police departments had very similar guidelines for the use of force, but that regrettably the rules were not always strictly followed by law enforcement in either country.

Do you disagree with any of that?

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Lost Soul » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:55 pm

Whenever I kick a cop in the balls, I immediately inform the surrounding cops that they have guidelines and I have rights.

It works every time.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Moethebartender » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:59 pm

Sources: East Pittsburgh Officer Accused Of Killing Antwon Rose Sworn In Hours Before Fatal Shooting
By Jon DelanoJune 20, 2018 at 5:50 pm

EAST PITTSBURGH (KDKA) – An investigation is underway after 17-year-old Antwon Rose was shot in the back by an East Pittsburgh police officer while Rose was running from a traffic stop.
KDKA-TV has now learned that the officer who is accused of shooting Rose, was only sworn into duty a few hours before the fatal shooting.


When a police officer shoots someone, even if they’ve been involved in a crime in a neighboring community as has been alleged here, Allegheny County homicide detectives step in. “In accordance with police best practices in the aftermath of officer-involved shootings, Allegheny County Police Department homicide detectives were requested to assume the role of independent investigatory agency,” said Superintendent Coleman McDonough on Wednesday. But it’s up to Allegheny County District Attorney Stephen Zappala to determine whether Rose’s shooting was justified or not.

“That officer has the same rights as any other citizen,” said McDonough. *

Sources tell KDKA political editor Jon Delano that the East Pittsburgh officer, in his 20s, has been on duty in East Pittsburgh for just three weeks and was sworn in about 90 minutes before the actual shooting. Although, he’s been an officer in the region since 2011. He has worked in Harmarville, Oakmont, and for the University of Pittsburgh Police Department.

“What the community is reacting to right now is a horrible video showing a young man who absconded from a traffic stop and was shot in the back by a police officer,” noted Beth Pittinger. Pittinger, who is with the Pittsburgh Police Review Board, which has no jurisdiction in this case, says there are lots of unanswered questions. “We have to have the patience to allow the Allegheny County homicide detectives to do their job,” she says.

Pennsylvania law allows deadly force in an arrest only when the officer believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to himself or others. That’s the general rule, but there is another. Deadly force can be used when force is necessary to prevent an escape and (1) the person to be arrested has committed a forcible felony, or (2) he’s attempting to escape and possesses a deadly weapon, or (3) he will endanger others if not arrested right away.

“As our investigation progresses, we will provide the District Attorney with our findings for his review,” noted McDonough. There is no word on how long that will take. Rose’s shooting was caught on video by nearby residents. He was taken to McKeesport Hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

According to police, officers initially responded to a shots fired called on Kirkpatrick Avenue in North Braddock. When they arrived, they found a 22-year-old man had been shot in the abdomen. The shooter fired nine .40-caliber founds at the victim from a vehicle. The victim returned fire and struck the vehicle with multiple rounds. Callers reported that a car was spotted fleeing the scene. Police spotted what they believed was the same car on Grandview Avenue in East Pittsburgh a short time later. The car had bullet holes in the rear windows. While an East Pittsburgh police officer was detaining the driver, two passengers ran from the car, including Rose. The officer opened fire and Rose was struck by multiple rounds.

Police found two weapons inside the vehicle, but none on Rose’s person.
The officer has been placed on paid administrative leave pending the results of the investigation.
Rose was a student in the Woodland Hills School District.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by korgy » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:42 am

i saw that also this morning -- totally fucked.

one of the consequences of having such a pus-pool running the country now is that issues that normally would be national headlines get sidelined, due to so many other abominations taking the spotlight.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Ped_Yai » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:23 pm

I watched the video. The captioning and what is shown is rather different from what the article said about it.

Before I saw the video I was wondering if the girl's attitude was a "no pig is going to mess with me" or a "fight or flight" reaction over a very, very, minor interaction with the police.

It appears to have been some of both.

She had no problem blowing into the breathalyzer. I wonder if her brain had actually processed what was going on when it happened.

Some time shortly after she blew into the breathalizer, her concern was "I didn't do anything to get written up, did I?" -- here she's afraid she may get a ticket. Presumably because she's still a minor in possession. It's still not clear to me whether the cops knew she was minor but it appears they did because the copy said "you're in possession . . ." and he was asking about the "aunt".

Then, without any further input from the cop, she says "You can't lock me up. You can't lock me up." In her mind she's jumped up a level, from fearing a ticket to fearing being locked up. Whether she refused to give her name just to be uncooperative, or because she thought it would stave off legal process that might include a short time in the Wildwood jail we can't tell.

Then she switches to bossy mode. She starts telling the cops how they need to conduct themselves. "You can't lock me up. You can wait for my aunt. You can waste your time (waiting for my aunt) like you wasted your time coming over here". Sorry, folks, that's disrespectful.

I think she was mentally and emotionally overwhelmed at having to actually interact with a police officer under circumstances where she felt herself to be at a disadvantage.

She won't do well on the witness stand. The cops will settle this for nuisance value.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by muthafunky » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:37 pm

Sorry, folks, that's disrespectful
So what? Police officers should be mature and professional enough to treat disrespectful people the same as anyone else. Enforcing the law should not be dependent on how deferential a citizen is.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinnyD » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:46 pm

Has the aunt come forward?

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Ped_Yai » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:06 pm

muthafunky wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:37 pm
Sorry, folks, that's disrespectful
Enforcing the law should not be dependent on how deferential a citizen is.
Uh, enforcing the law has everything to do with how deferential a citizen is when there is an apparent violation of the law by the citizen and in the course of the officer's investigation the citizen not only fails to cooperate, but decides to tell the cop that he can basically piss up a rope. What bubble to you live in?
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by simon_in_exile » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:11 pm

So she got what was coming to her? Couple of “soft punches” to the head with her face pushed into the sand will teach her a lesson, right?
On the plus side, at least she wasn’t shot in the back.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Ped_Yai » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:24 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:46 pm
Has the aunt come forward?
I think this is the aunt.


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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by muthafunky » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:25 pm

Uh, enforcing the law has everything to do with how deferential a citizen is when there is an apparent violation of the law by the citizen and in the course of the officer's investigation the citizen not only fails to cooperate, but decides to tell the cop that he can basically piss up a rope. What bubble to you live in?
You don't have to say a word to a cop interrogating you (see: the US Constitution). You can also tell a cop to piss up a rope. That is not a crime and should not be used to more harshly deal with a citizen.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by eric84 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:38 pm

Ped_Yai wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:24 pm
VinnyD wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:46 pm
Has the aunt come forward?
I think this is the aunt.


Gosh, no soft punches there. And this incident cost her her job.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinnyD » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:57 pm

I looked it up. It is illegal in New Jersey for someone under 21 knowingly to be in possession of alcohol in public.

But in this case, since her Aunt Caren was the owner of the alcohol, the young lady was not in violation of that law.

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