FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by muthafunky » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:16 am

No, it wouldn’t change my view that leela is being hysterical. Why would it?

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by simon_in_exile » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:27 am

Guess I had higher hopes.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by DCComic » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:35 am

leela wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:52 am
ben_hanscombe wrote: You've been living under the threat of police violence for so long and normalised it so completely that you've forgotten that it's wrong.
That comes over from so many posts in this thread. I find it depressing and hard to get my head round.

You're a police officer, you're going to deal with some unpleasant people. That's the job. This girl will be at the least offensive end. If you can't deal with her without gratuitous violence, you shouldn't be a cop. That's a given.
What shocks me is the lack of blame or surprise from most of the Americans here, who seem to expect nothing more, and are even sort of okay with it.

All of that. Get lippy with the filth and they’ll beat you, apparently. There a people on here who aren’t surprised, let alone outraged.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by leela » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:42 am

Hysterical is what a woman is if she disagrees with mutha, apparently.

I'm actually very calm, but I will continue to disagree with anyone who thinks a beating is a proportional response to someone arguing a point with a police officer. The guy will get away with it because that's what Americans have become used to. It's all her fault, okay.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Lost Soul » Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:50 am

leela wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:42 am
Hysterical is what a woman is if she disagrees with mutha, apparently.

I'm actually very calm, but I will continue to disagree with anyone who thinks a beating is a proportional response to someone arguing a point with a police officer.
Except she quit arguing the point, started being unresponsive, and then delved into assaulting a cop while resisting arrest.
The guy will get away with it because that's what Americans have become used to. It's all her fault, okay.
No, he will get away with it because she was resisting arrest.

Do you speak English, or should I say the same thing for the fifth time?
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by ben_hanscombe » Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:51 am

muthafunky wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:56 am
The hysterics never cease
Freedom from arbitrary corporal punishment by agents of the state is more important to Brits than Americans.
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What the fuck is that about?

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Lost Soul » Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:57 am

ben_hanscombe wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:51 am
muthafunky wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:56 am
The hysterics never cease
Freedom from arbitrary corporal punishment by agents of the state is more important to Brits than Americans.
We used to have nice cops, even in my lifetime. Not to mention a couple of TV shows showing the same.

And then came the all important War On Drugs.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinnyD » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:42 am

korgy wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:44 am
VinnyD wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:17 pm
As I mentioned above, it is a legal obligation in New Jersey to identify yourself to a policeman who asks during a legitimate Terry stop, which this was.
what does that have to do with anything?
Shunter asked "When did it be a legal obligation punishable by assault to be deferential to the police?"

Of course, failure to identify yourself isn't punishable by assault, but it seems they wee within their rights to ask her to identify herself and to arrest her when she refused. It did not appear from the video that she willingly submitted to being arrested.

LS, there is a difference between what you expect a cop to do in certain circumstances and what it is legal for the cop to do. It is not legal for a cop to punch you because you call him a fucking dickhead. It looks to me as if that is what happened here. It seems that it looks that way to you to, in which case we agree that the cop broke the law.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Lost Soul » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:53 am

Vinny, as a highly esteemed, but non-practicing former lawyer, you have to agree with me that the rules changed the second she started resisting arrest.

Or, because you may be positively batshit, maybe you don't agree with me- that the rules change when you resist arrest.

In that case, you wasted a lot of money, I'm sorry to say.

Then again, you could look at it as a donation to whatever law school failed you in your truncated legal career.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinnyD » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:00 pm

The rules don't allow a cop to punch you in the head because you call him a fucking dickhead. It looks to me like that's what happened here. I could be wrong.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinceFoster » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:10 pm

Striking her was stupid and unnecessary. The rest seems to have happened pretty much the way it should have based on that woman's behavior.

I agree that there is a huge problem with US cops and other assorted security people escalating instead of diffusing tension.

That said, this woman is a fucking moron and I don't think she was going to back down unless the police sheepishly said "we're sorry" and moved on.

How do you think it would have gone when they told her to pour out the beers?

I'm reminded of watching my brother get a speeding ticket that could have easily turned into a warning had he not antagonized a small town cop for having the gall to pull him over for speeding. I still don't know what he was thinking.

ETA: As Seamus said "you're about to get dropped" was a stupid and unprofessional thing to say.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by SeamusMcCool » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:26 pm

simon_in_exile wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:10 am
Mutha - “hysterics” and leela don’t go in the same sentence. She’s written a calm, measured viewpoint, which incidentally I share.


I also agree with seamus - these guys are a minority within the force - but they should be shamed, punished, and this sort of thing stamped out.
Agreed on both points. I always read Leela with a measured tone in my head. I don't believe she does hysterics.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by SeamusMcCool » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:40 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:00 pm
The rules don't allow a cop to punch you in the head because you call him a fucking dickhead. It looks to me like that's what happened here. I could be wrong.
Vinny I've already pointed out to you what is clearly shown in the video and stated by the cops is he started punching her after she assaulted him with a kick. It still shouldn't have gotten to that point. With two cops surely there must be a way to restrain her on her feet while putting on the cuffs.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by SeamusMcCool » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:41 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:00 pm
The rules don't allow a cop to punch you in the head because you call him a fucking dickhead. It looks to me like that's what happened here. I could be wrong.
Vinny I've already pointed out to you what is clearly shown in the video and stated by the cops is he started punching her after she assaulted him with a kick. It still shouldn't have gotten to that point. With two cops surely there must be a way to restrain her on her feet while putting on the cuffs.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by eric84 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:52 pm

muthafunky wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:56 am
The hysterics never cease
He’ll get hysterical if he gets pulled over for suspected drunk driving
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by 2wilzgood » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:22 pm

simon_in_exile wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:10 am
these guys are a minority within the force
You have a link or just a sense of how the States operate law enforcement?
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Steve_in_Exile » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:44 pm

leela wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:52 am
You're a police officer, you're going to deal with some unpleasant people. That's the job. This girl will be at the least offensive end. If you can't deal with her without gratuitous violence, you shouldn't be a cop. That's a given.
I agree with this completely and don't find it hysterical.
leela wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:52 am
What shocks me is the lack of blame or surprise from most of the Americans here, who seem to expect nothing more, and are even sort of okay with it
I don't think it's true that most Americans here are sort of OK with this. But I'm still failing to see any "hysterics".

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Moethebartender » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:38 pm

Shamoo wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:11 am

The cops could have handled it better but her attitude and bad manners (gets on the phone and arrogantly walks away from the scene forcing the cops to go get her) tells me that getting punched is probably a regular Saturday night for her.
It certainly would be if she were unfortunate enough to be dating the likes of Punchy Mcfisty Shamoo
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Lost Soul » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:42 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:00 pm
The rules don't allow a cop to punch you in the head because you call him a fucking dickhead. It looks to me like that's what happened here. I could be wrong.
Yeah, you're wrong. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Electrolyte » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:43 pm

What kind of pussies do the NJ police hire? Not saying this was necessary, but if they did have to completely subdue an underage girl they aren't able to do this without punching her in the head? I could have pinned the girl in the video without hurting her when I was 13.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by muthafunky » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:56 pm

I’m surprised cops with body cams would do something like this. You could easily guess the way they acted would result in a viral story and (hopefully) a reprimand and lawsuit.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by SeamusMcCool » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:57 pm

Moethebartender wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:38 pm
Shamoo wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:11 am

The cops could have handled it better but her attitude and bad manners (gets on the phone and arrogantly walks away from the scene forcing the cops to go get her) tells me that getting punched is probably a regular Saturday night for her.
It certainly would be if she were unfortunate enough to be dating the likes of Punchy Mcfisty Shamoo
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double post

Post by Electrolyte » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:11 pm

accidental double post
Last edited by Electrolyte on Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Electrolyte » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:13 pm

SeamusMcCool wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:21 am
Just blow the breathalyzer, keep your mouth shut including snarky comments about blowing negative, dump the booze and take the ticket if they write one and then fight it in court.
I think I would rather get punched in the face while having my head held down in the sand and get it over with quickly (as long as there is no real damage or really ugly marks) than have to lose a day of work, schlep to the courthouse, and spend a day of huge frustration jumping through hoops to be allowed to present my case to a judge and likely losing anyway even if I were in the right.

And btw, that missed day of work for many people means losing their job.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Andrea1 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:42 pm

 They were (initially) arresting her because she didn't give her name and was a minor in possession of alcohol? I've got that right? At that point she was being lippy/walking away, but is that an arrest-able offense? If so, what? Obstruction?

What she said/did during/after they told her/attempted to carry out ‘you’re about to get dropped’ is when/why she was:
'charged with aggravated assault on a police officer, aggravated assault by spitting bodily fluids at/on a police officer, disorderly conduct, resisting arrest, obstruction'.

I don't think she spat at anyone until after she'd been punched. Does that matter? In Law. Only, the chronology and the escalation, the part played in that escalation, by the police, feel important, to me.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinnyD » Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:27 pm

LS, do you think the law allows a cop to punch someone in the head because they called the cop a fucking dickhead?

Andrea, I don't think anyone here knows what the law is as to possession of alcohol on that beach. I have asked and nobody has answered. Assuming that possession or open display by a minor of an unopened container of alcohol is illegal there, then the cops were within their rights to question her, incouding asking her to identify herself. When she refused to identify herself, they were within their rights to arrest her.

Seamus, there is a witness on the video who says she didn't kick the cop.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by shunter » Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:13 pm

Steve_in_Exile wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:44 pm
leela wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:52 am
You're a police officer, you're going to deal with some unpleasant people. That's the job. This girl will be at the least offensive end. If you can't deal with her without gratuitous violence, you shouldn't be a cop. That's a given.
I agree with this completely and don't find it hysterical.
leela wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:52 am
What shocks me is the lack of blame or surprise from most of the Americans here, who seem to expect nothing more, and are even sort of okay with it
I don't think it's true that most Americans here are sort of OK with this. But I'm still failing to see any "hysterics".
I don’t think most americans are ok with it but there is an argument that: “she provoked it, she deserved it” which seems common to our brainwashed American cousins but who hnjn no way makes any sense at all as a justification.

(And vinny I said “deferential”.)
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by 2wilzgood » Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:41 pm

shunter wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:13 pm
I don’t think most americans are ok with it but there is an argument that: “she provoked it, she deserved it” which seems common to our brainwashed American cousins but who hnjn no way makes any sense at all as a justification.
The posters who're claiming nominal disgust w/ police brutality, but holding out Jersey girl as due a thump (Lost, disho'spew, shameus) are generally stoopid and currently disingenuous. They're trolling, mistaken, stupid, or all three.

That Americans anywhere may genuinely believe the pigs should thump mouthy tramps is indisputable. It's a nationwide affliction brought on by ease, envy, and ignorance, and it saddens me. I thought the days of "fuck him, he's a dirty hippie/fag/spick/jig" were dying out in the States.

But what a spectacular resurgence, with our very own elected fearless leader assuring us there are good people on both sides. Now we know whose side Lost, disho'spew, and shameus are on. Trolling, mistaken, or stupid.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by muthafunky » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:24 pm

shunter wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:13 pm
I don’t think most americans are ok with it
Exactly, and that’s the hysterical bit for me. This isn’t common or representative of most police interaction, which is why it’s now international news. Most Americans are not ok with this sort of thing, and drawing conclusions about “most Americans” on the basis of posts from lost soul, logg, or anonymous commenters on news sites is silly and lazy.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Logg » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:25 pm

shunter wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:13 pm
Steve_in_Exile wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:44 pm
leela wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:52 am
You're a police officer, you're going to deal with some unpleasant people. That's the job. This girl will be at the least offensive end. If you can't deal with her without gratuitous violence, you shouldn't be a cop. That's a given.
I agree with this completely and don't find it hysterical.
leela wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:52 am
What shocks me is the lack of blame or surprise from most of the Americans here, who seem to expect nothing more, and are even sort of okay with it
I don't think it's true that most Americans here are sort of OK with this. But I'm still failing to see any "hysterics".
I don’t think most americans are ok with it but there is an argument that: “she provoked it, she deserved it” which seems common to our brainwashed American cousins but who hnjn no way makes any sense at all as a justification.

(And vinny I said “deferential”.)
You're shocked because not everybody bought into this sensationalist tabloid piece as it was presented in your daily rag. As far as I know, leela still thinks the girl was just being a good niece and keeping an eye on the beer for her sainted aunt who left the beach to run some errands and was coming right back.

The other big issue was the punching. People felt free to use terms like 'bashing her' 'repeatedly punching' 'holding her down and repeatedly bashing her in the face.' That wasn't accurate either, imo.

You people got caught up in a tabloid story based on a viral video and are taking out your frustrations on people who want to pause and look at the bigger picture. I'll bet you were one of the surprising number of Brits on this site who thought that Amanda Knox was guilty of murder, which can only be explained by relying on your tabloid press for news about those ridiculous Americans.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by 2wilzgood » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:32 pm

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Shavenhead » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:38 pm

The video proves that Amerikkka is becoming a National Socialist state, and it's only matter of time before Trump unleashes a war of conquest on the world. Before you know it, they'll be goose stepping through London and Melbourne.

I think what people in the UK and Australia find disturbing about the video is what life will be like living under the shadow of the stars and stripes, and whether they too in the not too distant future will be punched repeatedly in the face by Brown Shirt thugs.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinnyD » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:04 pm

Seamus is not USAnian, is he? Logg is finding ambiguity in the video that not all of us see. Lost Soul is saying, as far as I can make out, that this is to be expected if you shout obscenities at a cop and is therefore legal behavior on the cop's part. I don't see most USAnians here defending the cop.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by SeamusMcCool » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:11 pm

2wilzgood wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:41 pm
shunter wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:13 pm
I don’t think most americans are ok with it but there is an argument that: “she provoked it, she deserved it” which seems common to our brainwashed American cousins but who hnjn no way makes any sense at all as a justification.
The posters who're claiming nominal disgust w/ police brutality, but holding out Jersey girl as due a thump (Lost, disho'spew, shameus) are generally stoopid and currently disingenuous. They're trolling, mistaken, stupid, or all
I never said anything of the sort you drooling idiot. Don't comment on my posts if my arguments are too complex for you, a simpleton.

Saying she probably gets into a lot of fights with her peers and pointing out she kicked or tried to kick the cop does not mean I was ok with the cop punching her in the head
I very clearly stated but obvious in too advanced language for you that the cops should have restrained her on her feet without violence.

Maybe leave your childish feuds out of the discussion and you won't look like an idiot. Hth
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinnyD » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:14 pm

Lost Soul is the only poster here who said that she deserved it because she provoked it.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by SeamusMcCool » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:16 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:04 pm
Seamus is not USAnian, is he? Logg is finding ambiguity in the video that not all of us see. Lost Soul is saying, as far as I can make out, that this is to be expected if you shout obscenities at a cop and is therefore legal behavior on the cop's part. I don't see most USAnians here defending the cop.
I'm not defending the cop and I don't care what the witness said the video clearly shows her taking a kick at the cop before he starts punching her. Whether or not she connected you can't tell but she definitely tried. Note for drooling retarded feuders stating this fact does not mean I endorse a man drilling a young woman in the head repeatedly.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinnyD » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:19 pm

Are you from the US, Seamus?

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by 2wilzgood » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:22 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:04 pm
Seamus is not USAnian, is he?
What's your point? He's as ridiculously stupid as the bulk of them.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by SeamusMcCool » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:22 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:14 pm
Lost Soul is the only poster here who said that she deserved it because she provoked it.
I agree. Matter of fact the more I think anout it the more I think the cops failed miserably. If I was their supervisor I would ask them, "Don't you remember being 20 and sneaking booze on the beach? She gave you a good story so just take the booze away with a warning and leave."
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by SeamusMcCool » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:25 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:19 pm
Are you from the US, Seamus?
Nope, but I have close family members who are American not that it matters wrt this discussion. My experience with Canadian and American cops has been similar. Most are good and know how to descalate a situation and then there are the ones who shouldn't be cops in the first place because of their attitude towards the people they serve.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinnyD » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:27 pm

I only bring it up because people have said that most Americans here are defending the cop. I count one.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by 2wilzgood » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:32 pm

SeamusMcCool wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:22 pm
Matter of fact the more I think anout it
Yes, matter of fact, thinking anout it more will serve you well. It always has.

Cops in the US are out of control.

The "good ones" aren't doing shit about it.

Why would they?
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Steve_in_Exile » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:57 pm

SeamusMcCool wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:16 pm
the video clearly shows her taking a kick at the cop before he starts punching her
The kick in this video clearly comes after the officer tackles her and punches her in the head.



If you have a video of her kicking the officers before they tackle her and punch her, please post it. I haven't seen that.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by leela » Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:50 pm

It seems I've identified some Canadians as USAnians. My apologies for that.

But the tone of many posts has been 'well she deserved it' or 'it was her fault', and I really don't think that either is a valid view.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Lost Soul » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:01 pm

VinnyD wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:27 pm
LS, do you think the law allows a cop to punch someone in the head because they called the cop a fucking dickhead?
No, but it does allow them to punch, kick, bite, billy club, mace or shoot some asshole who is resisting arrest.

But by all means, you should try your theory out. Go get arrested, resist, and then say: "Hey you dickheads, you can't touch me mofos".
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Moethebartender » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:12 pm

Korky wrote:i remember being on Samothraki island is 2003 and apologizing for being an American under Bush II.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by Iolar » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:18 pm

Lost Soul wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:01 pm
VinnyD wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:27 pm
LS, do you think the law allows a cop to punch someone in the head because they called the cop a fucking dickhead?
No, but it does allow them to punch, kick, bite, billy club, mace or shoot some asshole who is resisting arrest.

But by all means, you should try your theory out. Go get arrested, resist, and then say: "Hey you dickheads, you can't touch me mofos".
In civilised societies, the police can only use reasonable force in the process of making an arrest. A few sucker punches is not reasonable force.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by VinnyD » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:34 pm

Which of course is the law in all of the United States. I used to say that while Lost Soul knew lots of things, only about 40% of what he knew was in fact the case. I think his average has been slipping recently.

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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by korgy » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:36 pm

muthafunky wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:16 am
No, it wouldn’t change my view that leela is being hysterical. Why would it?
personally, i try to avoid using the word "hysterical", given its origins -- particularly when it come to using it against women. it is a word derived from a belief that certain behaviour was to be ascribed to a malady of the womb (hyster), and was originally used only to describe women. it has totally sexist, misogynistic roots, believing that only women act "hysterically".

and if one knows this origin, and is intentionally flailing the term around just to be anti-PC, that's almost worse to me.
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Re: FFS. Seriously, this is so disturbing

Post by leela » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:40 pm

The three core questions on the use of reasonable force, in the UK
Core questions
a) would the use of force have a lawful objective (eg, the prevention of injury to others or damage to property, or the effecting of a lawful arrest) and, if so, how immediate and grave is the threat posed?
b) are there any means, short of the use of force, capable of attaining the lawful objective identified?
c)having regard to the nature and gravity of the threat, and the potential for adverse consequences to arise from the use of force (including the risk of escalation and the exposure of others to harm) what is the minimum level of force required to attain the objective identified, and would the use of that level of force be proportionate or excessive?
I'd say
a) the threat was not immediate or grave
b) yes, there were means short of force
c) there was great potential for adverse consequences Including risk of escalation, and the force was disproportionate and excessive.
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