A military parade

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Capitolhill
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Re: A military parade

Post by Capitolhill » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:58 am

I've never seen an administration (and congress, for that matter) actively try to undermine the intelligence agencies.
Bananas. Weapons of mass destruction? Bullying the CIA/FBI? I've seen much worse done. It led to 30k deaths.
Or have an office dedicated to finding ways to suppress the vote (since disbanded).
Terry Lewis in 2000. Hanging chads.
Those may not be new, but it's been a long time since we've had an admin that so actively pointed at the 'other' as the source of our problems.
Yep. Nobody's ever vilified the opposition/allies. Maybe you're "with us or against us".

Trump is trash. There's no dispute. But the worst threat in the world is a devious leader who knows how to play the game. This guy doesn't.
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Re: A military parade

Post by eric84 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:20 pm

I think when you violate basic democratic norms the damage done is not apparent until, perhaps, it's too late. It's possible this will be all a 4 year nightmare and everything will return to normal but the damage done to institutions, it seems to me, is hard to repair.
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Re: A military parade

Post by Logg » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:05 pm

Capitolhill wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:58 am
I've never seen an administration (and congress, for that matter) actively try to undermine the intelligence agencies.
Bananas. Weapons of mass destruction? Bullying the CIA/FBI? I've seen much worse done. It led to 30k deaths.
Or have an office dedicated to finding ways to suppress the vote (since disbanded).
Terry Lewis in 2000. Hanging chads.
Those may not be new, but it's been a long time since we've had an admin that so actively pointed at the 'other' as the source of our problems.
Yep. Nobody's ever vilified the opposition/allies. Maybe you're "with us or against us".

Trump is trash. There's no dispute. But the worst threat in the world is a devious leader who knows how to play the game. This guy doesn't.
Yes, dumb and corrupt is not as bad as clever and corrupt. It's nicer to have a guy who says "America First" because he's ignorant of history than someone (like Bannon) who says "America First" because he knows history.

Not to beat a dead horse, but Trump isn't just trash, he's anti-democratic. "Lock her up." "I love wikileaks." "The election is rigged."

About hanging chads and oligarchies....it's funny to remember that Dubya's brother was actually the governor of Florida at the time. In 2000, we could say 'that won't affect the outcome. America's not like that.' In today's climate, it sounds sketchy as hell just on the face of it.

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Re: A military parade

Post by Capitolhill » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:37 am

Logg wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:05 pm

Yes, dumb and corrupt is not as bad as clever and corrupt. It's nicer to have a guy who says "America First" because he's ignorant of history than someone (like Bannon) who says "America First" because he knows history.

Not to beat a dead horse, but Trump isn't just trash, he's anti-democratic. "Lock her up." "I love wikileaks." "The election is rigged."

About hanging chads and oligarchies....it's funny to remember that Dubya's brother was actually the governor of Florida at the time. In 2000, we could say 'that won't affect the outcome. America's not like that.' In today's climate, it sounds sketchy as hell just on the face of it.
Yes, dumb and corrupt is eons better than clever and corrupt. Who wouldn't rather play chess against some guy off the street who doesn't know the rules or against someone who's getting whispers in his ear from advisors with decades of playing experience?

Regarding the Florida election in 2000, there was a similar level of freak out regarding "anti-democractic" process. Post 9/11 was the most frightening period I've ever seen this country -- it's not even close. Railroading into Iraq, UN falsehoods, whatever the fuck John Ashcroft was up to, and a million other things. But currently, we need to run around like our hair is on fire due to recency bias, a helluva lot of bad optics, and empty rhetoric from Mr. Orange.

Look, if Kim Kardashian becomes the next President, I'll say Trump had a lasting impact on the country's psyche. Likewise if he just starts chucking nukes into NoKorea. Until then... Go to the beach. I've seen tangibly much, much worse.
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Re: A military parade

Post by Logg » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:22 am

Capitolhill wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:37 am
Logg wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:05 pm

Yes, dumb and corrupt is not as bad as clever and corrupt. It's nicer to have a guy who says "America First" because he's ignorant of history than someone (like Bannon) who says "America First" because he knows history.

Not to beat a dead horse, but Trump isn't just trash, he's anti-democratic. "Lock her up." "I love wikileaks." "The election is rigged."

About hanging chads and oligarchies....it's funny to remember that Dubya's brother was actually the governor of Florida at the time. In 2000, we could say 'that won't affect the outcome. America's not like that.' In today's climate, it sounds sketchy as hell just on the face of it.
Yes, dumb and corrupt is eons better than clever and corrupt. Who wouldn't rather play chess against some guy off the street who doesn't know the rules or against someone who's getting whispers in his ear from advisors with decades of playing experience?

Regarding the Florida election in 2000, there was a similar level of freak out regarding "anti-democractic" process. Post 9/11 was the most frightening period I've ever seen this country -- it's not even close. Railroading into Iraq, UN falsehoods, whatever the fuck John Ashcroft was up to, and a million other things. But currently, we need to run around like our hair is on fire due to recency bias, a helluva lot of bad optics, and empty rhetoric from Mr. Orange.

Look, if Kim Kardashian becomes the next President, I'll say Trump had a lasting impact on the country's psyche. Likewise if he just starts chucking nukes into NoKorea. Until then... Go to the beach. I've seen tangibly much, much worse.

Yes there was an anti-democratic freakout in 2000, but I wasn't part of it. I guess I'm more cynical now. I look at the scary shit you mention from the 2000 term as being enabled by an exogenous event--911, not Dubya's election.

There's a difference between freaking out and paying attention. This is the most interesting time politically that I've lived through in my life and almost certainly the most anomalous presidency in the nation's history, at least since the Civil War or Andrew Jackson. This is a once-a-century event and the best thing since Watergate, and you expect me to walk away from it and go to the beach? I went to the beach when it was Obama v Romney. I stick around for this shit.

Assuming it's all over in 2020, I want to have been present for the shit show presidency that people are going to be talking about for generations. Assuming some sort of catastrophic 911 event happens tomorrow that changes everything, I want to be already engaged, not having to hastily lace up my shoes and play intellectual catchup.

I know you're not saying it, but the argument sounds a little bit like 'Trump and Hillary both suck, so why bother?"

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Re: A military parade

Post by strife » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:28 am

Trump is Ebola. Clinton would've been a common cold.
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Re: A military parade

Post by Capitolhill » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:55 am

Logg wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:22 am
Yes there was an anti-democratic freakout in 2000, but I wasn't part of it. I guess I'm more cynical now. I look at the scary shit you mention from the 2000 term as being enabled by an exogenous event--911, not Dubya's election.

There's a difference between freaking out and paying attention. This is the most interesting time politically that I've lived through in my life and almost certainly the most anomalous presidency in the nation's history, at least since the Civil War or Andrew Jackson. This is a once-a-century event and the best thing since Watergate, and you expect me to walk away from it and go to the beach? I went to the beach when it was Obama v Romney. I stick around for this shit.

Assuming it's all over in 2020, I want to have been present for the shit show presidency that people are going to be talking about for generations. Assuming some sort of catastrophic 911 event happens tomorrow that changes everything, I want to be already engaged, not having to hastily lace up my shoes and play intellectual catchup.

I know you're not saying it, but the argument sounds a little bit like 'Trump and Hillary both suck, so why bother?"
We completely differ on 2000 vs. 2018.

The Iraq invasion was a certainty once Dubya was elected. It was a matter of when and how. Throw 9/11 into the mix and questioning anything involving the Bush Administration became McCarthy-lite. Not great times for democracy.

As far as being present for this Trump Administration... I'll admit it. He's spouted so much garbage, I've officially become numb. The idea I'm going to be bouncing my grandchild on my knee in front of a roaring fire and saying, "And then President Trump tweeted a happy 9/11 to all the 'haters and losers'" seems like a stretch.

All the gory post 9/11 aftermath is a story I would retell.

No idea where the Clinton/Trump both suck comparison came from, btw.
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Re: A military parade

Post by korgy » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:40 am

Capitolhill wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:55 am
As far as being present for this Trump Administration... I'll admit it. He's spouted so much garbage, I've officially become numb.
this is what worries me -- people think all that is happening is Trump is just being an utter tweet turd. meanwhile, his administration is dismantling programs that have taken decades to get off the ground, destroying diplomatic relationships that have taken even longer to build, turning US citizens against intelligence operations that have worked outside of politics for many years to protect them, etc etc etc
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Re: A military parade

Post by Logg » Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:27 am

Capitolhill wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:55 am
Logg wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:22 am
Yes there was an anti-democratic freakout in 2000, but I wasn't part of it. I guess I'm more cynical now. I look at the scary shit you mention from the 2000 term as being enabled by an exogenous event--911, not Dubya's election.

There's a difference between freaking out and paying attention. This is the most interesting time politically that I've lived through in my life and almost certainly the most anomalous presidency in the nation's history, at least since the Civil War or Andrew Jackson. This is a once-a-century event and the best thing since Watergate, and you expect me to walk away from it and go to the beach? I went to the beach when it was Obama v Romney. I stick around for this shit.

Assuming it's all over in 2020, I want to have been present for the shit show presidency that people are going to be talking about for generations. Assuming some sort of catastrophic 911 event happens tomorrow that changes everything, I want to be already engaged, not having to hastily lace up my shoes and play intellectual catchup.

I know you're not saying it, but the argument sounds a little bit like 'Trump and Hillary both suck, so why bother?"
We completely differ on 2000 vs. 2018.

The Iraq invasion was a certainty once Dubya was elected. It was a matter of when and how. Throw 9/11 into the mix and questioning anything involving the Bush Administration became McCarthy-lite. Not great times for democracy.

As far as being present for this Trump Administration... I'll admit it. He's spouted so much garbage, I've officially become numb. The idea I'm going to be bouncing my grandchild on my knee in front of a roaring fire and saying, "And then President Trump tweeted a happy 9/11 to all the 'haters and losers'" seems like a stretch.

All the gory post 9/11 aftermath is a story I would retell.

No idea where the Clinton/Trump both suck comparison came from, btw.
I'm not sure how the Bush administration would have pushed through a war with Iraq without a pretext like 911.

And I agree with korgy. If you've checked out because of twitter, there's a good chance he's going to damage and dismantle a lot of institutions and norms in the meantime while no one's paying attention:
Starting feuds with allies, blurting out espionage secrets, bringing the whole functionality of federal government to a standstill, not to mention his corruption and nepotism. It's like engaging in every form of self-destructive behavior and saying, "look, it hasn't killed me yet!"

If your grandkid ever becomes a poli sci student or takes an interest in presidential history, he's going to probably be very interested in what life was like during the Trump years. This administration's going to fundamentally change the rules of the presidency and how the office is perceived. We'll see if it changes the way candidates are nominated or the two party system as we know it.

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Re: A military parade

Post by Capitolhill » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:05 am

Logg wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:27 am
I'm not sure how the Bush administration would have pushed through a war with Iraq without a pretext like 911.

And I agree with korgy. If you've checked out because of twitter, there's a good chance he's going to damage and dismantle a lot of institutions and norms in the meantime while no one's paying attention:
Starting feuds with allies, blurting out espionage secrets, bringing the whole functionality of federal government to a standstill, not to mention his corruption and nepotism. It's like engaging in every form of self-destructive behavior and saying, "look, it hasn't killed me yet!"

If your grandkid ever becomes a poli sci student or takes an interest in presidential history, he's going to probably be very interested in what life was like during the Trump years. This administration's going to fundamentally change the rules of the presidency and how the office is perceived. We'll see if it changes the way candidates are nominated or the two party system as we know it.
A bit like arguing whether water is wet. It's public record at this point. Linking 9/11 to Saddam Hussein is a bit self-evident of his intentions.

I'm checked out because this OP is already out of date. "Military Parade"? Nobody cares or remembers this one week later. It's already in the ether. We're already on to the new scandal du jour that everyone will forget about next week.

As far as telling grandkids.... WWII, Man on the Moon, Vietnam, 9/11, etc. are seminal moments. Trump hasn't even come close to approaching that echelon. So far, at best a Lewinsky BJ lore-wise.
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Re: A military parade

Post by Logg » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:16 am

Intentions are not the same as faits accompli. Otherwise, Ashcroft would have thrown a burka over the Statue of Liberty.

Yes, the military parade is last week's news. But even Trump isn't immune to the massive backlash that floating the idea received, and that probably cooled his enthusiasm for the idea. If more people were positive or indifferent, we might be onto the implementation phase already.

Watergate isn't like the man on the moon either, but it was the dominant story that shaped a generation of political junkies.

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Re: A military parade

Post by Capitolhill » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:37 am

It's a fair that there needs to be some hardcores that push back. I just look at uninvolved people in everyday life who hang on this guy's every word like it's gospel. Yeah, maybe one of these things may come true some day... But why waste the time until it happens? He's proven to be totally inept.

Often said at work in the morning:
Co-Worker: "Can you believe what Trump said last night?"
Me: "Yes"

I get your point, but I also stand by mine.

PS: Disagree, Watergate was Man on the Moon level.
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Re: A military parade

Post by Capitolhill » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:38 am

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Last edited by Capitolhill on Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A military parade

Post by Capitolhill » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:38 am

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Re: A military parade

Post by Logg » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:59 am

Your points are all good, especially about dubya.

Watergate was a spectacle, but it was also political geekdom at its highest. It's rare that the organs of our democracy get a real workout from a shock to the system like they are now. Political geeks have been living in the shadow of Watergate for 45 years; this is their Woodstock.

It's good that you're onto the ruse of Trump's tweet-cycle. He tweets, the media freaks out, his base likes it, it becomes the talking point du jour and resets the media cycle. In this rare example, the parade idea was even unpopular among much of his base. Did he even tweet about it? I can't remember.
I don't think the media helps by taking the bait every time, but they do get higher ratings. A great example is when Trump retweeted the gif of him bodyslamming cnn. For the next two days they reported as if he had just signaled his intentions to physically attack the media. The base, and others, were like 'get over yourselves, drama queens, you're being ridiculous.'

Sometimes it doesn't even take a tweet. Trump didn't tweet his 'shithole' comments, those were leaked by Democrats. But everyone got so freaked out by it, from the media to the global community, while Trump's base felt like he was just speaking a truth that no one is allowed to say.

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Re: A military parade

Post by Moethebartender » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:15 pm

It's kinda funny that sometimes (not often), the level of discussion here is far better than what you'd hear from the talking heads on the Sunday morning news shows. Some of you fuckers are smart, insightful and interesting.
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Re: A military parade

Post by Logg » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:01 am

So, this has turned out to be a tough news week for Trump. Indictments have been issued in the Mueller investigation, another affair has been disclosed in great detail, a previous payoff has been confirmed, and there's still the outstanding Kelly/Rob Porter/security clearance issue.
In previous cycles, this would be where Trump tweets something over the weekend to reset the scandal bar for Monday. He usually tweets or says something divisive, generally race oriented, that will outrage his opponents and the media but mollify his base.

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