Cliven Bundy Part Two

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Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by cuchulainn » Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:15 pm

One of the worst things the Obama administration has done was not to prosecute and or execute the Bundyistas.

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Militiamen, ranchers in showdown for soul of Burns



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Ryan Payne, an Amry veteran and electrician, practices with his gun outside his Montana home in 2014. He recently moved to Harney County in Oregon to join other militiamen to protest the imprisonment of two prominent ranchers, Dwight Hammond Jr. and his son Steven. Payne and others want a local sanctuary created to shield the men from surrendering for federal prison, a move the Hammonds don't support. (Cathrine L. Walters, Special to The Oregonian/OregonLive)
Les Zaitz | The Oregonian/OregonLive
Print Email Les Zaitz | The Oregonian/OregonLive By Les Zaitz | The Oregonian/OregonLive
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on December 30, 2015 at 5:00 AM, updated December 31, 2015 at 5:25 AM

BURNS – The strangers carrying the whisper of danger arrived in the vast territory of the Harney Basin just before the holidays.

Ammon Bundy once helped his father repulse the government in an armed showdown on a Nevada desert. He was Tasered for his effort.

Ryan Payne, an electrician from Montana, joined that same standoff and boasted of organizing civilians into sniper squads that drew a bead on federal agents.

And not long ago, Jon Ritzheimer worried the FBI with his threatening rants against Muslims in Arizona and elsewhere, according to press reports.

Now, the men say, they are in Burns to help Dwight and Steven Hammond.

The Hammonds are father and son ranchers, due to report to federal prison on Monday. They were convicted in 2012 of arson for lighting public land on fire adjacent to their ranch land south of Burns. They have been imprisoned once and must return for an additional term after federal appellate judges said they had been illegally sentenced the first time.


Self-styled patriots and militiamen gathering in Burns don't want that to happen, declaring the Hammonds' imprisonment illegal under the U.S. Constitution.

They have latched on to the Hammonds as their latest cause to stand against the federal government.

"I am here now trying to empower and motivate the people of this community to take a stand against tyranny and show them that I will gladly stand with them," Ritzheimer said.

The Hammonds don't want to be part of the outsiders' cause, and neither do many in Harney County.

But that hasn't stopped the strangers from summoning help from militia groups across the country. They are vague about their intention and their plans, unsettling the community and putting law enforcement on edge. The militia plan a rally and a parade on Saturday, circling the county courthouse that houses the sheriff's office.

The militia members have been insisting that Harney County Sheriff Dave Ward create a sanctuary so the Hammonds will be immune from surrendering. Ward met with the militiamen and rejected that demand. The militia has since labeled him an "enemy of the people." Ward said he has received emailed death threats among thousands of messages from across the country regarding the Hammonds.

Two weeks ago, Bundy and Payne roused 60 or so local citizens to their cause at a community meeting. They rented the Memorial Building at the fairgrounds for the night. They taped themselves lecturing the locals on their rights, on the Constitution, and on their duty to protect themselves.

The Harney County situation is the second time this year Oregon has been the national rallying point for militias. Last spring, miners fighting with the Bureau of Land Management over paperwork outside Medford found themselves enveloped with militia defenders. Militia members eventually left – but only after claiming they beat back the government. An administrative law judge temporarily stopped BLM action against the miners.

But the activists carrying pocket editions of the Constitution with them to Harney County are better known for the spectacle in Nevada in spring 2014.

The BLM was the bogeyman there too.

Nevada showdown

Militiamen by the hundreds flowed to Nevada that year to help rancher Cliven Bundy. The BLM was corralling his cattle that it said were trespassing on public land. The agency said Bundy hadn't paid grazing fees for 20 years, amassing more than $1 million in bills.

Payne, an Army veteran, came to the rancher's defense. In later interviews, Payne said he was the "militia adviser" to Bundy. Payne helped array armed civilians against the federal agents.

"We had counter-sniper positions on their sniper positions. We had at least one guy—sometimes two guys—per BLM agent in there," Payne told a Montana weekly, the Independent. "If they made one wrong move, every single BLM agent in that camp would've died."

Ammon Bundy, Cliven Bundy's third son, was there too.

As the nation watched, the BLM called off the cattle collection and withdrew in the face of the armed militia. The Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks hate groups across the country, said in a 2014 report on the Bundy standoff that the government's retreat empowered the militiamen.

Ryan Lenz with the law center was on the ground in Nevada and later interviewed Payne for the report. Lenz said the Harney County development isn't surprising.

"What's happening is very much what everyone feared would happen in the aftermath of the Bundy standoff," Lenz said. "The rule of law was suspended with the barrel of a gun."

Aiding the Hammonds

Bundy and Payne say they met with both Dwight and Susan Hammond at their home in November. Bundy said he helped the ranchers move cows one day.

The Hammonds initially accepted the militia's offer of help to avoid prison, Bundy said. But the Hammonds changed their minds after being warned by federal prosecutors to stop communicating with the militia, Bundy wrote in a blog post.

The Hammonds declined interview requests and didn't respond to written questions about their dealings with the militiamen. A Boise lawyer representing the Hammonds said in a letter to the sheriff that Bundy didn't speak for the ranchers and that they intended to surrender as required.

Document: Hammond attorney letter

Bundy and Payne and their associates are persisting, though. They explain in deliberate, calm tones their reasoning.

The federal government claims title to most of the land in Harney County, the ninth largest county in the United States. Bundy and Payne maintain that Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17 of the U.S. Constitution limits what the federal government can own, and that the government's claim to much of Harney County violates that limit. The federal government consequently has no authority to prosecute the Hammonds.

Bundy and Payne, who said he has moved to Harney County, have pressed the matter on several fronts. They have insisted that Ward, the sheriff, protect the Hammonds. They have written other elected officials in the county and in Oregon asserting the same demand.

Some residents have shown interest in the group's cause.

Locals voted seven of their own onto a new Harney County Committee of Safety, including ranchers, a retired fire chief, and a tax preparer.

Payne and Bundy said the committee would decide how to address the Hammond conflict. But Bundy quickly created a website for the group and drafted a sharply-worded letter to the sheriff for the committee to issue.

Citizens on the committee said they authorized none of it.

Local dissent

Chris Briels, Burns fire chief for 24 years, said he was intrigued by the constitutional arguments raised by Payne and Bundy. But he said he also felt pushed too hard by Bundy to act. Briels said he is no anarchist.

The militia, Briels said, "seems like a bunch of people ready to shoot. I don't want that in my county."

Melodi Molt, a rancher and former president of Oregon CattleWomen, joined Briels on the new committee. She's troubled by what's happened to the Hammonds – but also worried about what her community faces with the outsiders.

"We're not from the militia," said Molt. "We're not going to come in with guns and overthrow the government."

The state's largest agriculture associations have vigorously defended the Hammonds since they were charged but want no part of the brewing militia action.

"I don't think people lining up in front of them with weapons or any kind of threats are going to help the Hammonds at all," said Barry Bushue, Oregon Farm Bureau president.

Billy Williams, Oregon's U.S. attorney, has also weighed in. In a lengthy statement to the Burns Times-Herald, Williams explained why the Hammonds were prosecuted. He then warned: "Any criminal behavior contemplated by those who may object to the court's mandate that harms someone will not be tolerated and will result in serious consequences."

Document: Statement by U.S. Attorney Billy Williams

Payne and Bundy say it's up to local residents what happens next. If the locals decide to declare the county a sanctuary for the Hammonds, the militia is ready.

"We're sending the message: We will protect you," Payne said.

Such talk rattles the community, as has conduct locals blame on the strangers.

Tensions persist.

A Utah man tied to Bundy and Payne disrupted a state court session, insisting the judge empanel a special grand jury to investigate the Hammond matter. Federal employees report they have been followed around town and to their homes. Payne said no one in his group has followed federal employees. But he acknowledged knocking on the front door of a home featuring a handmade "Go Home Bundys" sign. Payne said he wanted to understand the homeowner's concerns.

Signs on street poles pronounce, "Militia go home!"

Others reply: "You are the militia."

One episode in particular has upset the community.

The sheriff said three militiamen and one woman, one with a gun strapped to his hip, engaged his 74-year-old mother and 78-year-old father at a yard sale being held at the American Legion. When the men criticized the sheriff, his mother bristled, and said she didn't need their protection from the government.

Later, the men showed up at the sheriff's office to complain about the exchange involving his mother.

She had, they said, threatened them.


http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-north ... owdow.html

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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by northern_goddess » Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:19 pm

This is the story that won't end.

Do you think there will ever be a movie about these guys?
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by cuchulainn » Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:20 pm

The Federal government is going to have to make an example of these thugs.

If they do make a movie about them, it ought to be a dark comedy.

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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by northern_goddess » Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:27 pm

cuchulainn wrote:The Federal government is going to have to make an example of these thugs.

If they do make a movie about them, it ought to be a dark comedy.


I totally agree.
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by 2wilzgood » Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:44 pm

cuchulainn wrote:One of the worst things the Obama administration has done was not to prosecute and or execute the Bundyistas.


More accurately, it is something the Obama Administration hasn't done.

Doing something is often that much more problematic. See also Ruby Ridge, Waco, MOVE, etc. Well, they got away with taking out MOVE, but the others are illustrative.
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by rider5 » Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:09 pm

It's looking like Salmonid was right about the Bundy affair, the Feds should have acted quickly and decisively when it was all going down. Instead they didn't pull back to avoid a showdown to later crack down on these guys when the hoopla died down, they just backed down for good.

There are a number of these vigilante groups operating in the greater PNW area, the Oath Keepers were pulling some shenanigans in W Montana this past summer.

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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by Total Reject » Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:28 pm

These militia guys blatantly ignore the law and make money off public land while using military tactics to discourage enforcement. Grazing and water rights seem like small potatoes, but these guys are calculating criminals. They should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

I work with ranchers in Oregon to ensure environmental compliance and provide alternatives for economic development. Some of these guys have a history of threatening federal agency personnel, so we deal with those the government doesn't want to talk to. It's scary. The success the militia has had avoiding prosecution encourages more bad behavior. In the minds of many, they are standing up for their "rights".

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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by 2wilzgood » Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:43 pm

Yes. They should be apprehended, and later marched to the edge of town, shot dead, and left in a ditch.

Elsewise, fired on immediately and their entire family slaughtered. (See also Ruby Ridge)

Elsewise, firebombed in place. (See also Waco)

Elsewise, firebombed in place. (See also MOVE)

If you have some further brilliant plan, I am looking forward to hearing it.
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by 2wilzgood » Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:46 pm

rider5 wrote:the Feds should have acted quickly and decisively when it was all going down. Instead.., they just backed down for good.

the Oath Keepers were pulling some shenanigans in W Montana this past summer.


It's because EarthFirsters are the real danger, and the Feds do a damn good job locking them up. Oath Keepers are patriotic Americans, you fool.
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by northern_goddess » Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:24 am

Things are heating up! From the Bundy Ranch Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/bundyranch/?fref=nf

FOR IMMEDIATE PRESS RELEASE:
CLIVEN D. BUNDY
PO Box 7175
Bunkerville, NV 89007
702-346-5564
January 1, 2016
With great concern and love and much consideration from prayer, I come to you Harney County Sheriff of Oregon David M. Ward, rancher Steven Dwight Hammond, and rancher Dwight Lincoln Hammond, Jr.,
I, Cliven D. Bundy, have been involved for several weeks in the background striving to understand and comprehend your dilemmas in Harney County, Oregon. I understand that the grass that was burnt on each side of the fence was grazing rights that had been created through beneficial use, one side of the fence being private property and the other side of the fence being private property rights. The fires that were set were for a good purpose and had good results.
The United States Justice Department has NO jurisdiction or authority within the State of Oregon, County of Harney over this type of ranch management. These lands are not under U.S. treaties or commerce, they are not article 4 territories, and Congress does not have unlimited power. These lands have been admitted into statehood and are part of the great State of Oregon and the citizens of Harney County enjoy the fullness of the protections of the U.S. Constitution. The U.S. Constitution limits United States government.
It is my suggestion, Steven Hammond, that you go and check yourself into Harney County jail asking for protective custody. It is my suggestion, Dwight Hammond, that you go and check yourself into Harney County jail asking for protective custody. It is my suggestion, Harney County Sheriff David Ward, accept these two ranchers into your jail, notify the United States Solicitor in Washington DC that you have these two ranchers in Harney County jail, that they will remain there indefinitely under your protective custody and the protection of We the People of Harney County and We the People of the United States of America.
I suggest an Evidentiary Hearing or a Grand Jury be formed by We the People.
I feel that this action is immediately important, that it should be taken place before 10:00 am Saturday, January 2, 2016. I will hold these suggestions private until that time then I will release this letter to those having state and county jurisdiction and to the media.
Cliven D. Bundy
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by northern_goddess » Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:26 am

They have currently occupied the headquarters of a national park.

UPDATE: Militia members protesting a federal prison sentence for two Oregon ranchers convicted on charges of setting fire to federal land have occupied the headquarters of a national park, the OregonLive reports.

The protesters include Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy’s son, Ammon, and two of his brothers. Also among them is Ryan Payne, who organized snipers to aim weapons at federal officers during the Bundy Ranch standoff last year.

They told OregonLive that they are accompanied by about 150 others and are hunkered down at Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters. The group is described by reporter Les Zaitz as “hard core militia” who adopted the ranchers’ cause as their own.

“The facility has been the tool to do all the tyranny that has been placed upon the Hammonds,” Ammon Bundy told Zaitz in a phone interview from inside the headquarters. “We’re planning on staying here for years, absolutely. This is not a decision we’ve made at the last minute.”

He would not rule out the possibility of violence.

Authorities have not yet commented on the occupation but Zaitz reports that Oregon State Police, the Harney County Sheriff’s Office and the FBI are involved in the developing situation.

Zaitz also reports that the group plans to seize a Bureau of Land Management fire station in the community of Frenchglen. The fire station is only used during the summer and is currently closed.

The Bundy Ranch standoff was triggered last year when the BLM tried to enforce grazing laws that Cliven Bundy was flouting. Instead of complying, Bundy allowed armed militia to set up camp for a standoff with federal authorities.


https://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/or-residents-blast-trigger-happy-idiot-right-wing-militia-for-defending-ranchers-who-set-federal-land-on-fire/
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by Flobster! » Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:28 am

Not ruling out the possibility of violence gets lots of people shot by cops, apparently.

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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by Flobster! » Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:31 am

Or as a tweet says: This is the time for moderate militiamen to stand up and speak out against the violent extremists.

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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by northern_goddess » Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:37 am

They need to take some serious action against these whackos. By 'they', I mean the gubbament.
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by eric84 » Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:05 am

No, leave em alone. Like trollers, they crave attention. Don't give it to them.
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by 2wilzgood » Sun Jan 03, 2016 3:04 pm

Total Reject wrote:The success the militia has had avoiding prosecution encourages more bad behavior. In the minds of many, they are standing up for their "rights".


and

“The facility has been the tool to do all the tyranny that has been placed upon the Hammonds. We’re planning on staying here for years, absolutely.”

He would not rule out the possibility of violence.


Standing up for their rights and violently opposing tyranny. Don't forget opposing tyranny.

Tear gas, flashbang, or white phosphorous? Rock, paper, scissors really, innit?
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by Lavite » Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:04 pm

The Hammond's were convicted of arson for setting fires on public land twice. So they are guilty. I rather doubt their motive had anything to do with terrorism though. Probably just a pair of assholes.

I hope everyone of these militia yahoos is convicted of a federal crime that will prevent them from ever owning a firearm again. The Feds made a huge mistake in not aggressively going after the Bundy's last time. They were a bunch parasites grazing their cattle on public land and refusing to pay the rather modest rent.
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by rider5 » Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:50 pm

What are the Feds going to do at Malheur National Wildlife Refuge office? Back down again? That's my bet. That should make 2wilz happy if I am deciphering his doggerel above correctly.

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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by judik » Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:52 pm

There really is a double standard.If there was a armed 100 man strong group of Black lives matter protesters,this would be over and there would be casualities
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by Lavite » Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:58 pm

judik wrote:There really is a double standard.If there was a armed 100 man strong group of Black lives matter protesters,this would be over and there would be casualities


Nothing to loot at a wildlife refuge.
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by judik » Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:05 pm

A protest is a protest unless you are biased
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by 2wilzgood » Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:16 pm

Asked by an Oregon Public Broadcasting reporter how many militia members were at the headquarters, Bundy didn’t divulge.

“I will not disclose,” he said. “Operational security.”


well,

Ammon Bundy told the Oregonian that he and two of his brothers had joined dozens of people in seizing the refuge’s headquarters.

He said many of the occupiers would be willing to fight — and die — to reclaim constitutionally protected rights for local land management.

Ron Gainer, the owner of a nearby RV park who dropped off some chili for the occupiers, told the broadcaster that he counted about 15 people, a half-dozen vehicles and a trailer at the site. The estimate differed sharply from the Bundy family accounting, which put the number of people at the refuge at about 150.


Waco killed 76, the Thibodaux massacre between 50 and 300, Mountain Meadows between 100 and 140 dead, the Ludlow Massacre 26 dead, MOVE just eleven.

Government sanctioned massacres of US citizens are pretty thin gruel. Perhaps it is time to water the tree of liberty. Fifteen or 150, no matter. Finish them!

Timothy McVeigh, gone but not forgotten.
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by VinnyD » Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:21 pm

judik wrote:There really is a double standard.If there was a armed 100 man strong group of Black lives matter protesters,this would be over and there would be casualities

Or 100 extremist Muslims.

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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by 2wilzgood » Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:53 pm

Nobody in nobody out. Turn off the water. They can stay for years. Putrefying.
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by rider5 » Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:25 pm

You can knock it off now 2wilz. I think everyone gets your point. Your polemics get tiresome.

Not every encounter the Feds have had with these sorts of groups has ended in a massacre.

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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by 2wilzgood » Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:39 pm

That was my point. That is why I used the term, "pretty thin gruel."

Polemics? Fuck your "polemics." Five massacres in one hundred forty years is thin gruel. Wait, I left out The Bonus Army. Four dead, nevermind.

Meanwhile,

The federal indictment alleges that Autry knew the NCIS informant had not purchased any methamphetamine from anyone at the residence and the NCIS informant had not proven himself to be reliable in the past. Additionally, the indictment alleges that Autry had not confirmed that there was heavy traffic in and out of the residence. Based on this false information, the magistrate judge issued a “no-knock” search warrant for the residence and an arrest warrant for W. T., who allegedly sold the methamphetamine. The warrant obtained by Autry was executed approximately two hours later, during the early morning hours of May 28, 2014.”

A flash-bang grenade was tossed during the execution of the search warrant into the side door of the residence, according to authorities. It landed directly in the room where 18-month-old Bounkham Phonesavanh, also known as baby Bou Bou, was sleeping.

The grenade landed inside the toddler’s playpen and critically injured him.


Because we all know who gets the business end. Toddlers in playpens.

Flash-bangs for everyone!
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by Cisco » Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:55 pm

If the linked story is true, and I can't say for sure either way, the Hammonds are being screwed by the federal government.

Read the whole thing, please.

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/201 ... rsecution/

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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by 2wilzgood » Sun Jan 03, 2016 7:25 pm

rider5 wrote:That should make 2wilz happy if I am deciphering his doggerel above correctly.


rider5 wrote: I think everyone gets your point. Your polemics get tiresome.


You move from doggerel to polemics in ninety minutes?

Did your big boy dictionary fail you?

The US govt traditionally does NOT slaughter its citizens. When it does (Ruby Ridge, Waco), you get Timothy McVeighs.

I argue one step at a time, and if warranted, give them what they want.. martyrdom, then prepare for the blowback. Turn off the water, wait them out is the solution.

Waco itself wasn't warranted, but if Obama wants to Waco these Cliven fuckfaces, I won't lose much sleep.

No doggerel, no polemics. Waco was a mistake. But it would be a worse mistake to not nip these Bundy shits in the bud.

Speaking of doggerel and polemics, do you have any idea what was done to Black Panthers? No one talks about that.
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Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by judik » Sun Jan 03, 2016 8:21 pm

Here is another take on it
Complicated indeed
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/0 ... explainer/
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by incognita » Sun Jan 03, 2016 8:34 pm

Cisco, none of that excuses Vanilla Isis' actions, whether it's true or not, and the Hammond's don't want their support. Much of the 'defense' of the Bundy's turned out to be untrue as well, and I wouldn't trust a site as biased as that one.

I was in the 'feds were waiting for all the publicity to die down and then they'll start arresting people' camp too. Unfortunately, I was wrong too.
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by judik » Sun Jan 03, 2016 8:37 pm

Vanilla Isis
Excellent
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by flojin » Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:25 pm

Fox News hasn't even mentioned this story. It's not on their front page.

That explains why none of the right wingers here have weighed in. They haven't been told what to think about this yet. They may not even know it's happening.
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by Cisco » Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:31 pm

judik wrote:Vanilla Isis
Excellent


Very clever.

But also very silly.

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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by Cisco » Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:34 pm

flojin wrote:Fox News hasn't even mentioned this story. It's not on their front page.

That explains why none of the right wingers here have weighed in. They haven't been told what to think about this yet. They may not even know it's happening.


Hell, ain't I right-wing enough for you?

(And the story is on the Fox news site.)

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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by flojin » Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:35 pm

Cisco wrote:
flojin wrote:Fox News hasn't even mentioned this story. It's not on their front page.

That explains why none of the right wingers here have weighed in. They haven't been told what to think about this yet. They may not even know it's happening.


Hell, ain't I right-wing enough for you?

(And the story is on the Fox news site.)



Not till you join YallQaeda.
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by Citizen Baba » Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:52 pm

Time to well regulate this militia with a drone.

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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by polardude1 » Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:53 pm

Cisco, do you want to make arson legal?
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by cuchulainn » Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:53 pm

Give them the martyrhood they desire.
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by Cisco » Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:44 pm

polardude1 wrote:Cisco, do you want to make arson legal?


We have links to two websites here. One left-leaning (Think Progress) and one right-leaning (Breitbart). They both seem to agree on one important point. The two Hammond men were convicted of arson in district court, sentenced to prison, and served their sentences without complaint or incident three years ago. Then along comes the federal government and says that the sentences meted out by the district court didn't conform to federal minimum standards and these men must be imprisoned again until they serve out the difference.

Can't you see an injustice here?

And, no, I don't believe that any armed militia should try to take the law into their own hands, but I can at least understand their anger and frustration at the way these men are being treated.

Sometimes the federal government can be flat out wrong. I think this is one of those times.

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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by flojin » Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:46 pm

Cisco,
Yes, sometimes the government is wrong. Quite often, in fact.

But the Hammonds themselves have stated they want none of this Bundy help.

Look at this mentally unstable dipshit. He, and the other morons, have made this Hammond nonsense a cause to rally around because want they really want is war.


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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by Cisco » Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:51 pm

flojin wrote:Cisco,
Yes, sometimes the government is wrong. Quite often, in fact.

But the Hammonds themselves have stated they want none of this Bundy help.


And I agree with the Hammonds.

The system may be fucked up somewhere...somehow, but killing or maiming innocent law enforcement is certainly not going to fix anything.

The militia members should stand down and go home and try to find another way to make things right.

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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by flojin » Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:01 am

There is no actual tyranny in this country against which to take up arms. There is bureaucratic inertia. There is pigheaded bureaucracy. There even is political chicanery. But there is no actual tyranny in the Endangered Species Act, or in the Bureau of Land Management, or in the Environmental Protection Agency, or in the Affordable Care Act, or in IRS dumbassery, or even in whatever it is that the president plans to say about guns in the next week or so. Anyone who argues that actual tyranny exists is a dangerous charlatan who should be mocked from the public square. Anyone who argues that there is out of political ambition, or for their own personal profit, should be shunned by decent people until they regain whatever moral compass they once had.


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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by 2wilzgood » Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:04 am

Cisco wrote:Can't you see an injustice here?


I can see an injustice being corrected. So do the convicteds' lawyers.

Cisco wrote:I don't believe that any armed militia should try to take the law into their own hands, but...


But.. what? Hurt feelings?

That is what Bundy folk are doing, innit. Feelings hurt, got guns, come and kill me coppers! It's pathetic Jimmy Cagney bullshit. Jazz hands.

Top of the World? Blow him the fuck up.

try to find another way to make things right.


How about pay their bills? The bills they've agreed to pay. Wait, that's their father. Right, the sons don't owe anything to anyone.
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by Cisco » Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:09 am

Looks like you didn't read a single word about the facts of this situation.

But why let that stop you from posting.

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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by 2wilzgood » Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:14 am

Cisco wrote: this situation


I understand this situation better than you do.

Cisco wrote: I can at least understand their anger and frustration at the way these men are being treated.


Go on.
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by polardude1 » Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:17 am

Then along comes the federal government and says that the sentences meted out by the district court didn't conform to federal minimum standards and these men must be imprisoned again until they serve out the difference.

Can't you see an injustice here?



No. I guess the district court got it wrong. Oops.
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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by Cisco » Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:58 am

polardude1 wrote:
Then along comes the federal government and says that the sentences meted out by the district court didn't conform to federal minimum standards and these men must be imprisoned again until they serve out the difference.

Can't you see an injustice here?



No. I guess the district court got it wrong. Oops.


Yeah...oops.

Unless it's your ass being dragged off to jail again.

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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by 2wilzgood » Mon Jan 04, 2016 1:01 am

Cisco wrote:Unless it's your ass being dragged off to jail again.


Has that happened to you? *sad face*

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Re: Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by polardude1 » Mon Jan 04, 2016 1:18 am

Unless it's your ass being dragged off to jail again.

Boo hoo, one should not play with fire on land tat is not yours
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Cliven Bundy Part Two

Post by judik » Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:45 am

There is quite a bit of injustice meted out by the Feds, state and local governments
But I guess unless you are a white vigilante it doesn't matter much
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