Corbyn - moving to the endgame

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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by shunter » Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:03 am

I'm continuing my membership for another year. Owen Smith im treating as a stalking horse for next years challenge. I hope and expect MPs to continue to challenge Corbyn until the weight of his incompetence causes him to spontaneously combust or something.
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by shunter » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:18 pm

In a poll today asking who would make the best pm, may got 50%, don't knows 31% and Corbyn 19%

Third in a two horse race or a signal that the labour-don't know alliance has the potential to remould British politics?
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by Chi_Rup » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:47 pm

Don't knows got us out of the EU and into the Elysian Fields of prosperity that will inevitably follow. Don't write them off.

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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by shunter » Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:15 am

Jon McDonnell now calling for Richard Branson to be stopped if his knighthood because ...er...... he embarrassed Corbyn by showing him up as a sanctimonious incompetent lying buffoon.

Imagine if mcdonnel actually had any power.
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by Wellpisser » Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:52 am

Far from moving to the end game, with only one opponent (and a dreadful, oleaginous creep at that) it looks like Jezza will increase his majority.

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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by shunter » Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:51 am

Moving to the endgame, for labour.....
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by Paddox1 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:41 pm

I like sadiq, but God he's a dick for nominating Corbyn. Was he being mischievous?

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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by shunter » Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:43 am

Margaret Beckett described herself as a "moron" for nominating Corbyn. Who could have thought it would come to this, that labour would be taken over by catscanman types.
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by CatScanMan » Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:30 am

I like Corbyn because he's an agent of change in out of touch London, but I don't agree with a lot of his actual policies.

Labour are dead to me. But an actual left wing party that dispenses with the SJW nonsense I've got time for.

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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by mad hatter » Sat Sep 03, 2016 10:06 am

CatScanMan wrote:I like Corbyn because he's an agent of change in out of touch London, but I don't agree with a lot of his actual policies.

Labour are dead to me. But an actual left wing party that dispenses with the SJW nonsense I've got time for.

Translate that into english

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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by shunter » Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:31 pm

Clearly Corbyn, stuck as he is sometime between 1975-1982, and guaranteeing a permanent Tory government, is not an an "agent of change".
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by Wellpisser » Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:44 pm

The Speccie reports that Sinn Fein are going to be giving a talk on the fringe of the Labour Party conference:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/co ... onference/

Sinn Fein feel welcome at a Labour Party conference. The political arm of the same IRA who bombed a Tory Party conference feel welcome at a Labour Party conference under Jeremy Corbyn.

Out of power for a generation.

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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by shunter » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:19 pm

Corbyn's net approval rating versus May is a nigh on incomprehensible minus 124 percentage points amongst the over-65s

It's time to deselect the electorate.
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by Vodd » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:14 pm

I thought Corbin came across pretty well last night, it is a pity he is such a terrible leader because I agree with a lot of his ideals.
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by shunter » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:32 pm

Well he's against bad things and pro good things and thinks everyone should be equal and rich! Everything should be fair and it's outrageous that it's not.
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by leela » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:46 pm

Vodd wrote:I thought Corbin came across pretty well last night, it is a pity he is such a terrible leader because I agree with a lot of his ideals.

Yep. I had such high hopes. But it turns out that ideals aren't enough on their own.
Pass the wine...

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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by shunter » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:52 pm

You're talking about a guy who had never shown any loyalty to his party, who had never been in the shadow cabinet, who had never served on any committee and who had never put forward a bill in 30 years, who had to borrow nominations from his colleagues who thought him a joke.

How thick do you have to be to imagine it could have possibly gone any better?



Wha
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by Wellpisser » Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:34 pm

straight talking, honest politics.

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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:01 pm

Will this OP make it to a year old with nothing changed?

This should go into Famous Dishes, to rival Lost Soul's great predictions.

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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by shunter » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:56 am

Could make it to 2020. It's amazing he's still around. Worst polling numbers of any opposition ever. Some people saying labour faces the worst election results since 1920, if you factor in the boundary changes. But you know: mandate etc etc
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by shunter » Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:22 pm

Corbyn is now saying that instead of a Minister for Defence he wants a Minster for Peace and Disarmament. Fucking neo-hipster student wanker. It's enough to make you pray for Armageddon.
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:53 pm

I'm not sure he said instead of, but the rest looks true.

Are we in the middle of some Monty Python sketch?

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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by shunter » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:07 pm

He's not the messiah; he's a very naughty boy.
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:13 pm

You have to give him dues though, he's been fairly consistent since the 70s.

Not like some of the others who went on CND marches to Aldermaston and have since become establishment.

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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by shunter » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:15 pm

Oh shut up. You're suposed to mature - as individuals and as a society. The fact he's stuck in 1975 is hardly a virtue.
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by Vodd » Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:35 pm

So being pro nuclear weapons is a sign of maturity. What a strange bubble you reside in
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by DCComic » Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:38 pm

shunter wrote:Could make it to 2020. It's amazing he's still around. Worst polling numbers of any opposition ever. Some people saying labour faces the worst election results since 1920, if you factor in the boundary changes. But you know: mandate etc etc

If that happens it'll be the fault of the PLP putting the boot in. He was doing ok until they did that.
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by shunter » Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:56 pm

Vodd wrote:So being pro nuclear weapons is a sign of maturity. What a strange bubble you reside in


Unilateralism is immature, yes. Having a minister of peace is sanctimonious nonsense. He's a wanker, pure and simple.
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by shunter » Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:57 pm

DCComic wrote:
shunter wrote:Could make it to 2020. It's amazing he's still around. Worst polling numbers of any opposition ever. Some people saying labour faces the worst election results since 1920, if you factor in the boundary changes. But you know: mandate etc etc

If that happens it'll be the fault of the PLP putting the boot in. He was doing ok until they did that.


He's never had good poll numbers and has been regarded as joke by the electorate since before day one. There aren't a bunch of people out there voting Tory who would only be too happy to vote Corbyn if only the PLP had confidence in him. Any suggestion there is is risible.
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:00 pm

shunter wrote:
Vodd wrote:So being pro nuclear weapons is a sign of maturity. What a strange bubble you reside in


Unilateralism is immature, yes. Having a minister of peace is sanctimonious nonsense. He's a wanker, pure and simple.


But, you think everyone who doesn't have your exact viewpoint is immature.

That's pretty immature.

I do think he is a wanker, but he has principles and conviction.

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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by DCComic » Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:00 pm

shunter wrote:
Vodd wrote:So being pro nuclear weapons is a sign of maturity. What a strange bubble you reside in


Unilateralism is immature, yes. Having a minister of peace is sanctimonious nonsense. He's a wanker, pure and simple.


How do the non nuclear nations cope? Must be really hard not having the best toys like the mature nations. India, Pakistan, Israel, NKorea(?)
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by shunter » Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:02 pm

Stephen_Dedalus wrote:
shunter wrote:
Vodd wrote:So being pro nuclear weapons is a sign of maturity. What a strange bubble you reside in


Unilateralism is immature, yes. Having a minister of peace is sanctimonious nonsense. He's a wanker, pure and simple.


But, you think everyone who doesn't have your exact viewpoint is immature.

That's pretty immature.

I do think he is a wanker, but he has principles and conviction.


So did Blair and Wilson and Cameron etc. Not that corbyns side would give them that credit. Corbyn wouldn't share a platform with Cameron but would with the IRA. That isn't s set of principles that are worth much.
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by shunter » Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:05 pm

DCComic wrote:
shunter wrote:
Vodd wrote:So being pro nuclear weapons is a sign of maturity. What a strange bubble you reside in


Unilateralism is immature, yes. Having a minister of peace is sanctimonious nonsense. He's a wanker, pure and simple.


How do the non nuclear nations cope? Must be really hard not having the best toys like the mature nations. India, Pakistan, Israel, NKorea(?)


what can I say. I believe Britain with its history and potential enemies needs to have nuclear weapons. You don't. All NATO countries should have nuclear weapons or they're freeloading off the yanks.
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:11 pm

I agree about nuclear weapons.

As for the IRA, the government were speaking to them behind the scenes, you can bet on that.

Are you a Ken Livingstone and Tony Benn?
Their views towards British policy in Ireland might put you off them too.

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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by shunter » Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:13 pm

There's s big difference between the government talking to the IRA and Corbyn and McDonnell supporting the IRA against Britain.
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by shunter » Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:23 pm

These are Corbyn and McDonnell's principles:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... links.html

The idea these wankers should have a minister of peace is just too absurd. Truly beyond parody.
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:47 pm

Yes, you'd have thought that would be an effective stick with which to beat them with.

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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by shunter » Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:10 pm

I guess the argument is that if you go too strong then the question that follows is: why did you ever join his shadow cabinet. His opponents in labour all witter on about him being a "decent man".

Come the general election the Torues will have no compunction. Cameron's gaff about "terrorist supporters" was pretty sincere, heartfelt. They hate him and will properly put the boot in, in a manner smith has totally failed to do. The PLP have been pretty wishy washy.
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by Wellpisser » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:45 am

shunter wrote:I guess the argument is that if you go too strong then the question that follows is: why did you ever join his shadow cabinet. His opponents in labour all witter on about him being a "decent man".

Come the general election the Torues will have no compunction. Cameron's gaff about "terrorist supporters" was pretty sincere, heartfelt. They hate him and will properly put the boot in, in a manner smith has totally failed to do. The PLP have been pretty wishy washy.


There is more, so much more. How do you sell a pro-IRA party leader to working class northern constituencies?

The only hope now is with the TUC.

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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by Wellpisser » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:19 am

The Price Across The Water writes in The Stagger:

New Times: David Miliband on why the left needs to move forward, not back

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... d-not-back

Milliand explains why credible values are the bedrock of radicalism – and why not everyone who disagrees with Corbyn is a closet Tory.
BY
DAVID MILIBAND

Brexit creates significant new challenges for the British left. It torpedoes some great gains, making discretionary various social, political, economic and environmental rights that have become mandatory over the past two generations. And it creates a whole new series of traps for progressive politics.

But Brexit also reflects the weakness of the left in the UK. In fact, Brexit was only possible because of Labour’s shift over the past ten years from a powerful governing majority to a secondary influence on national decision-making. The future of the left is about more than Labour, and about more than parliamentary representation, but only if we understand this shift can the challenges of Brexit be addressed.

Ten years ago Labour in Britain defined the contours of political debate. We had won three elections on the trot and the Tories felt the need to dance to our tunes – from the minimum wage to tripling of overseas aid to gay rights to boosting the National Health Service. Now Labour sits a long way from power, even before boundary changes. The ultimate ignominy of not being able to organise our own party conference has been avoided, but we have not been further from power since the 1930s.

The shift from the mainstream to the margins has not been the product of a series of unfortunate accidents. That would be a reason for sorrow. Yet frustration or anger is more appropriate, because the political situation of Labour is the product of a series of choices. Some of them have been small, others large, but together they have turned the party inwards rather than outwards, looking to the past rather than to new ideas, resting on easy rhetoric rather than taking hard decisions – and above all seeking to distance ourselves from our time in government, rather than building on it, in terms of both policy content and political culture and dynamic.

The party has ended up pre-New Labour in policy and culture, when we need to be post-New Labour. This year’s leadership election has spent a lot of time debating how to “bring back” various lost icons, such as nationalised railways, rather than focusing on new ideas for the future.

The main charge against Jeremy Corbyn is not just that his strategy is undesirable because it makes the party unelectable. That is only half the story. The real issue is that his strategy makes the party unelectable ­because it is in many aspects undesirable.

This is true most egregiously with regard to foreign policy. The half-hearted message about Europe is a betrayal of millions of working people. The equivocation on Nato in the face of Russia’s intimidation of nations in her former sphere of influence is dangerous and throws away progressive values.

But the electorate can see through the domestic policy, too. Nationalisation cannot be the answer to everything; anti-austerity speeches cannot explain everything; cor­porate taxation cannot pay for everything. It doesn’t add up. It wouldn’t work. People are not stupid.

There is one other element that is not only undesirable, but disastrous. It is the critique that everyone who disagrees with Jeremy Corbyn is in fact a closet Tory – or “Tory lite”. The US Republicans have a similar problem, with anyone to the left of the hard right called “Rino”, meaning “Republican In Name Only”.

The “Tory lite” allegation starts with a fact: government involves compromise. It then fashions an explanation: that the compromise is based on bad motives. It then develops a theory: that the trajectory of our country has been unchanged by Labour government since the Thatcher years. It then creates a new version of history: there is no difference between Labour and Tory governments. This is the sectarianism that leads to the dead end of permanent opposition.

The truth is that global markets, or ­“turbocapitalism”, are rewriting the rules in the economy and beyond. The extremes of income, wealth, innovation, degradation, inspiration, cruelty and humanity of this, the first period in history of truly global capitalism, are reflected in our politics. Globalisation has created inequalities of income, wealth and power that challenge the traditional answers of the centre left. And globalisation has challenged social norms in a way that has broken the back of the traditional centre right.

So the left needs to renew itself in the same way as during three previous periods in the wilderness – first in the 1930s, then in the 1950s, then in the 1980s/1990s. Each time three questions were defining. Only when the left found the right answer to all three did it become a party of government.

The first question is whether the left puts values above doctrine. In other words, is it dogmatic about ends (values) or means (doctrine)? When Labour becomes trapped by policy positions, it loses, because the public thinks it puts dogma above ideals. When it puts values in the driving seat –what is sometimes called “ethical socialism” – then policy imagination is the result. When it is willing to use markets and the voluntary sector as well as the state as agents of change, the left in Britain and around Europe has shown the capacity not only to win the confidence of the public but also to change the country. This is especially important when politics is in such flux. Theresa May’s nods towards a more equal society show the power of our values. But the public wants new and effective ideas to achieve them.

The second question is whether the left has policies for wealth creation as well as fair distribution. This is especially important today because there is so much evidence that inequality is economically inefficient. But tackling inequality is necessary, yet not sufficient to grow the economy. The ­former US treasury secretary Larry Summers’s work on “secular stagnation” shows the demand-side and supply-side dangers facing the global economy. Policy development is vitally needed in both areas to help avoid the trap of low growth and high inequality. More public spending on its own does not spring this trap – and, in the absence of serious ideas for raising productivity, will not work. A small example: “city regions” were a Labour idea ten years ago to drive economic growth from the ground up, long before George Osborne discovered the “Northern Powerhouse”, but were not developed.

The third is whether the left has an international perspective as well as a national one. In the 1930s this was about appeasement. In the 1980s it was about Europe. And today Europe is again the fulcrum. The temptation will be to chase Euroscepticism. This would be a huge error. Now is the time to set clear tests for the government’s negotiations with the European Union, to show how a progressive approach to engagement with the EU helps manage globalisation, rather than turn our backs on it. Nationalist isolationism of the left (or the right) offers no answers in an age of interdependence.

The issues today are momentous: whether global capitalism has more bust than boom; whether we can sustain Western liberal values in the face of global pressures; whether the climate crisis is past resolution; whether the people I work for – refugees and the displaced – will ever find a home; whether public services can survive the flight of capital from Western tax authorities; whether democratic norms can survive the tyranny of flash mobs.

These challenges cry out for a relevant, persuasive, open-minded left. It is tempting to believe that the need for credibility blocks radicalism. That is the Corbyn/Sanders argument. In fact, the truth is the opposite. Credibility is the foundation of radicalism. If you are not credible on your intentions, your trustworthiness, your judgement, your character, your instincts, then your radical policies will never be given the chance to breathe. But establish that foundation, and there is a majority to be made. Just look at the new Liberal government in Canada.

There is a host of contingent and tactical issues that needs to be addressed by those active on the political stage. But the structural and strategic issues listed here are a matter for us all.

David Miliband, the president of the International Rescue Committee, was the Labour MP for South Shields (2001-2013).


Really, it all started going tits up when McCluskey managed to get Minimilli into the top job. That and the banana.

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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:30 am

You both can call it IRA

Others may say they were interested in Irish rights.

What is your response to my question on Benn And Livingston, Shunter?

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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by shunter » Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:49 am

Your question was unintelligible.
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by mad hatter » Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:51 am

What do you expect?

....baaaaaaaa
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:39 am

shunter wrote:Your question was unintelligible.


Go and read it again, and stop being such a prick.

Mr predictive text.

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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:48 am

Anyway, this OP is ten months old now.

And no end in sight.

Don't give up the day job, Reginald.

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shunter
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by shunter » Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:42 pm

If you asking what I think of benn and livingstone then the answer is: Benin was an awful minister and disruptive in opposition and thankfully defeated by Healy. God knows why this man, incorrect in very thing, was somehow deified in later life. Livingstone I used to like, and voted for twice - he got worse and u was too charitable towards him. I didn't realise what a massive cunt he's always been. He was an ok mayor though.
1988: "We have a climate in Britain in which business wants to succeed and can succeed." Margaret Thatcher, speech to launch the European Single Market

2018: "Fuck business." Boris Johnson

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shunter
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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by shunter » Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:43 pm

Stephen_Dedalus wrote:Anyway, this OP is ten months old now.

And no end in sight.

Don't give up the day job, Reginald.


Another 3 years of this, god help us.
1988: "We have a climate in Britain in which business wants to succeed and can succeed." Margaret Thatcher, speech to launch the European Single Market

2018: "Fuck business." Boris Johnson

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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by Stephen_Dedalus » Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:53 pm

As it's the year of splitting, I think Labour will split into two.

So, we will have no effective single opposition in government, maybe for decades.

We are moving towards being another Italy.

Are the Labour MPs out if touch with their electorate?

Or is just Corbyniatas who can be bothered to register with the party?

Sad state of affairs. A perfect storm of a fuck up.

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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by shunter » Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:47 pm

I can't see labour splitting given the precedence if the SDP. Watsons tactics look to be sound: change the rules so no more unpopular fuckwirs can elected. And then take the hit at the next election, and the sooner the better. Assuming Corbyn resigns after the next election (not a given as the man is devoid of all conventional sense of honour) we bottom this thing out as soon as possible.
1988: "We have a climate in Britain in which business wants to succeed and can succeed." Margaret Thatcher, speech to launch the European Single Market

2018: "Fuck business." Boris Johnson

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Re: Corbyn - moving to the endgame

Post by Wellpisser » Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:01 pm

the *thwack* of leather on willow, a bat held up to the salute balcony to wild applause

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