Georgia, Ukraine not getting NATO entry soon: Germany

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Postby candy is dandy but... » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:09 pm

How can this be bizarre if Germany itself accepts this position?


It doesn't.
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Postby Piel! » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:15 pm

candy is dandy but... wrote:
How can this be bizarre if Germany itself accepts this position?


It doesn't.


Are you seriously suggesting that Chermany does not believe that it has a moral responsibility towards, say, Israel that others do not?

Are you denying that until recently it was illegal under the Cherman constitution for Cherman forces to be deployed outside NATO areas and that even where they are now deployed that they are not allowed to take part in offensive activities?

If Chermany did not accept that it has a special moral responsibility, why does it limit its military by constitution?
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Postby ToyTone » Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:54 am

why don't we go back to the point where this "discussion" started

Germans have no moral right to be pronouncing on or having an influence in the security arrangements of small countries like Georgia and Ukraine.


CollKnow got completely nuts because Merkel had an opinion about other countries joining NATO. For that opinion he wants Germany to be kicked out of NATO.

now we have
Germans have no moral right to be pronouncing on or having an influence in the security arrangements of small countries like Georgia and Ukraine

the conditions are the same for all NATO members. nobody suggested that NATO membership rules should apply to Germany differently.
CollKnow does. He is a racist.
there is not much to debate. haha.
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Postby Piel! » Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:34 am

ToyTone wrote:why don't we go back to the point where this "discussion" started

Germans have no moral right to be pronouncing on or having an influence in the security arrangements of small countries like Georgia and Ukraine.


CollKnow got completely nuts because Merkel had an opinion about other countries joining NATO. For that opinion he wants Germany to be kicked out of NATO.

now we have
Germans have no moral right to be pronouncing on or having an influence in the security arrangements of small countries like Georgia and Ukraine

the conditions are the same for all NATO members. nobody suggested that NATO membership rules should apply to Germany differently.
CollKnow does. He is a racist.
there is not much to debate. haha.


Of course Chermany should not have a serious say in matters, if it was not for Chermany and the Cherman lust for other peoples land and other peoples blood then there would have been no need for NATO because the Russians would have been inside Russia.

Collectively Chermans cannot escape their history and nor should they.
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Postby ToyTone » Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:36 am

Piel! wrote:
candy is dandy but... wrote:
How can this be bizarre if Germany itself accepts this position?


It doesn't.


Are you seriously suggesting that Chermany does not believe that it has a moral responsibility towards, say, Israel that others do not?

Are you denying that until recently it was illegal under the Cherman constitution for Cherman forces to be deployed outside NATO areas and that even where they are now deployed that they are not allowed to take part in offensive activities?

If Chermany did not accept that it has a special moral responsibility, why does it limit its military by constitution?


felixpiel
Germany decides for herself what kind of commitment it agrees to, what kind of obligations it feels committed too.
When the Grundgesetz was made, OF COURSE, you find passages which are influenced by the reflections of the horrors of a brutal nazi dictatorship. The conscious and the politics in do of course reflect WW2 the nazis and the Holocaust. But there are no special Nato, or UN or EU rules for Germany.

the rest is simply "Stew Spew" The political stew is a platform for racist pricks like CollKnow

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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:46 am

candy is dandy but... wrote:
How can this be bizarre if Germany itself accepts this position?


It doesn't.


Wrong. It does. Joschka Fischer, who was Germany's foreign minister, spelt it out regarding Israel in 2005:

"Not guilt feelings, but a historical, moral responsibility that Germany has for the Shoah. I experienced it again recently during the opening of the Yad Vashem [museum]. There is one nation about which this museum speaks when it shows the perpetrators, and that is us. When I go there, I find the most abysmal, blackest history of my people. That creates this special situation. Not in the sense of feeling guilt, but historical moral responsibility.


West German and sunbsequently German government policy towards Israel since the time of Adenaeur has been based on that sense. Josef Joffe explained it thus:

Its three components were: inherited guilt feelings toward the Jews, a sense of moral obligation toward Israel, and, especially under Adenauer in the early days of the Federal Republic, the sense that it was good realpolitik to be on the side of the young Jewish state."
.

He says hit has held true ever since, even throughthe government of Schroeder - the first German PM born after the war - and even Merkel's.

http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/Show ... 1&IID=1579

So generations of German politivians have accepted the principle of 'moral responsibilty' as a basis for foreign policy, no matter how much you dimsiss the notion as 'absurd'.

toytone wrote:But there are no special Nato, or UN or EU rules for Germany.


Clearly you are having trouble grasping the distinction between 'rules' and ''moral obligations'. There really is one. Nowhere have I claimed Germany iis subject to different rules.
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Postby Piel! » Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:25 pm

Dancy?
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Postby ToyTone » Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:28 pm

Clearly you are having trouble grasping the distinction between 'rules' and ''moral obligations'. There really is one. Nowhere have I claimed Germany iis subject to different rules.


you said
Germany should have no vote or influence whatsoever on who else is admitted to NATO. Merkel is evidently trying to sabotage the organisation from within. If she persists, Germany should be kicked out of NATO.


unless you now come up with "no country should have a vote or influence whatsoever on who else is admitted to NATO" which would make absolutely no sense.... the only interpretation of your bizarre yada is, that you want Germany to be subject to different rules regarding NATO, son of a car & Stutzman, and you just said that you claimed you didn't.

stupid really!
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:45 pm

ToyTone wrote:you want Germany to be subject to different rules regarding NATO,


Yes I do, if it won't follow its moral obligations.

and you just said that you claimed you didn't.


No I didn't. Again your comprehension skills are letting you down. You stated:

But there are no special Nato, or UN or EU rules for Germany.


Which is true, and I haven't argued that "as things stand there are different rules in operation for Germany", hence my reply:

Nowhere have I claimed Germany is subject to different rules.


What I have argued is that Germany is morally subject to different obligations, and I'd be happy to have that enshrined in different membership rules if Germany won't behave according the principle of special moral obligations which you and Candy may deny but which Germany's own leading politicians have acknowledged over the decades, as in the example I gave.

Clearly you are still having difficulty understanding the difference between existing rules and moral obligations. Rules and moral obligations can be in harmony or totally at odds with each other, depending on the particular situation. It's the tendency to prioritize obeying rules over following moral obligations which allowed the Holocaust to be conducted so smoothly in the first place. Haven't you even worked that out?
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Postby ToyTone » Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:53 pm

you want Germany to be subject to different rules, son of car.

and all your yada about moral obligations is tiring and dull. Every country has and act according to moral obligations and it is normal as well that these have to do with the past & history of their country & region or culture.

what you are aiming at is pure racism, you think Germans are different from other people, and you do not have the backup of any German politician on that... sorry, I have to correct you... I guess maybe some nazis still thinks Germans are different & special... all others have learned from the past.

you are in exquisite company you racist dullbottle.
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Postby ToyTone » Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:19 am

since this OB is in Famous Dishes, dullbottle, we can take our time and fathom the whole depths of your ignorance and racism.

Germany can be relied on to screw up again, go mad and start yet another European war.


this sentence, and there are many similar ones garnishing your posts, attribute something to Germany and hence per definition to Germans, to all Germans.

where have we heard sentences like "these people are a danger to Europe" before?
Mr. Stutzman, where have we heard agitated voices like yours before, telling us that this group of people are all "like this", cannot be trusted, are a danger, and need a special treatment?
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:01 am

ToyTone wrote:Mr. Stutzman, where have we heard agitated voices like yours before, telling us that this group of people are all "like this", cannot be trusted, are a danger, and need a special treatment?


Churchill in the the 1930s. When we also had German voices like yours seeing imaginary Jews everywhere, you Nazi cunt.
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:33 am

And how dare you compare Germany not having a say in which other new members can join NATO, with the treatment Germany gave to the Jews. You clearly have no sense of proportion or shame, you self-absorbed little ogre.
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Postby ToyTone » Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:11 pm

Churchill in the the 1930s. doh!

you miserable glum racist dullbottle hav nowhere to hide.

- - -
Winston S. Churchill
September 17, 1937

I find myself pilloried2 by Dr. Goebbels's Press as an enemy of Germany. That description is quite untrue. Before the war3 I proposed to Von Tirpitz a naval holiday. If this had been accepted, it would enormously have eased the European tension, and possibly have averted the catastrophe. At the moment of the Armistice, as is well known, I proposed filling a dozen great liners with food, and rushing them into hamburg as a gesture of humanity. As Secretary of State for War in 1919, I pressed upon the Supreme Council the need of lifting the blockade, and laid before them the reports from our generals of the Rhine which eventually procured that step. I took a great deal of personal responsibility in sending home, months before they would otherwise have been liberated, about one hundred thousand German prisoners, who were caged up in the Pas de Calais. I was vehemently opposed to the French invasion of the Ruhr. In order to prevent a repetition of it, I exerted myself in Mr. Baldwin's Cabinet to have the Treaty of Locarno made to cut both ways, so that Germany as well as France had British protection against aggression. Therefore no one has a right to describe me as the enemy of Germany except in Wartime.
http://www.digitalsurvivors.com/archives/friendshipwithgermany.php
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Postby ToyTone » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:55 pm

Collateral Knowledge wrote:And how dare you compare Germany not having a say in which other new members can join NATO, with the treatment Germany gave to the Jews. You clearly have no sense of proportion or shame, you self-absorbed little ogre.



I compare the way you blather about Germans being different from other people with the way nazis were blathering about Jews.
you don't stop saying that we are different. You continue.
You say that you can predict the actions of Germany
Germany can be relied on to screw up again, go mad and start yet another European war.

according to you Germany's and Germans behavior is defined.... by nationality&culture. You declare Germany to be dangerous and harmful, not only potentially, but implicitly
that is the same the nazis did with the Jews..... declare them as bad by nature and dangerous.

but thanks dullbottle for reminding us what the nazis did with the Jews in Europe. But, you, you don't scare us, we know you. no chance this time you racist pig.
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Postby ToyTone » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:20 pm

oh and dullbottle about your name

And why have you given me a Jewish name? You are as transparent as invertebrate, you Nazi cunt.


completely worked up that I know your name. That must have been a shock for you, I see!
I think Stutzman is a great name, just wonder how you manage to repress the fact that it is of German origin.

http://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.c/qx/stutzman-coat-arms.htm


it's not your day, dullbottle, again.... and I hope it will not be your century either.
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:07 pm

Neither 'Gabe', nor 'Stutzman' are my name, and I don't live in England. And 'Gabe Stutzman' is a Jewish name. Kind of a revealing slip on your part, and one which rather undermines your wailing about being accused of Jew-baiting. As with invertebrate also assuming I was a Jew, you have shot yourself in the foot.
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Postby ToyTone » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:50 am

so, dullbottle, you call me a nazi cunt, based on the wrong assumption, that your name is Jewish.

that is, .... well that is ... hm, haha so piss poor, almost worse than a dullbottle.

If you just new my name.... ahhhh!
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Postby muthafunky » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:52 am

How is the lawsuit progressing?

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Postby Piel! » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:49 pm

Dancy?
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:56 am

Yes. Candy?

You said that the notion of moral responsibilities peculiar to a nation was 'absurd'. You then denied Germany held such a position, but as I've shown it certainly does.

Are you going to acknowledge that at some point, or shall I accuse you in turn, as you have done to me, of ducking the argument - or don't you hold yourself to the same standards as others? Do you have it in you to admit you were wrong?
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Postby ToyTone » Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:57 pm

candy is dandy but... wrote:
Germany should have no vote or influence whatsoever on who else is admitted to NATO.
Germans have no moral right to be pronouncing on or having an influence in the security arrangements of small countries like Georgia and Ukraine.
A nation and a person are different things. Germany today has certain moral responsibilities which are the result of what it has done in the past.


Ck ducked this argument, which is normal for him.

Ignoring the bizarre contention that a nation can have a moral responsibility that is unique to it because of it's history, Ck's argument is;

Because of a past crime an entity holds a moral responsibility that non-criminals do not.
That a moral responsibility deprives its holder of certain moral rights.
That these moral rights are necessary to avail itself of constitutional rights within an organisation to which it has been freely admitted.

Having reduced his own argument to an absurdity, calling others Nazis is obviously his least embarrassing option.


I read through the whole thread again. A pleasure!

C is D has made his point sound and clear. CK has nothing to put against it and goes back to "Germany having moral obligations".
As much as Collknowl insists that I and other got it wrong, this ass-clown himself does can't distinguish between 'rules' and ''moral obligations'.

He wants Germany to be object of different rules. And he says that Germans themselves want this. Bullshit. Germany acts upon 'moral obligations' and does not want to be subject to different rules.

Collknow you cheap fuckface stand up!
Admit that you failed on all accounts in this thread.
You abused Churchill searching for someone who hates like you. You failed.
You tried to sell us 'special rules for Germany' trying to disguise this blatant racist approach as 'self imposed moral obligation'.
You failed.
You see Germans different from other people. You think Germans are different because they are Germans.

And look at mudthefunky .... not one word. he stands by, he grins and farts around. Belch, what a tool.

Everyone who doesn't tell CollKnow to shut the fuck up with his ignorant racist yada is a bloody racist as well. Everyone who does not feel the repulsive odor of CollKnows views about people should be send to the middle ages with out a return ticket.
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Postby Piel! » Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:31 pm

HerrTanTrum is such a precious gift to this place.
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Postby i_have_shiny_shoes » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:02 pm

ToyTone wrote:
candy is dandy but... wrote:
Germany should have no vote or influence whatsoever on who else is admitted to NATO.
Germans have no moral right to be pronouncing on or having an influence in the security arrangements of small countries like Georgia and Ukraine.
A nation and a person are different things. Germany today has certain moral responsibilities which are the result of what it has done in the past.


Ck ducked this argument, which is normal for him.

Ignoring the bizarre contention that a nation can have a moral responsibility that is unique to it because of it's history, Ck's argument is;

Because of a past crime an entity holds a moral responsibility that non-criminals do not.
That a moral responsibility deprives its holder of certain moral rights.
That these moral rights are necessary to avail itself of constitutional rights within an organisation to which it has been freely admitted.

Having reduced his own argument to an absurdity, calling others Nazis is obviously his least embarrassing option.


I read through the whole thread again. A pleasure!

C is D has made his point sound and clear. CK has nothing to put against it and goes back to "Germany having moral obligations".
As much as Collknowl insists that I and other got it wrong, this ass-clown himself does can't distinguish between 'rules' and ''moral obligations'.

He wants Germany to be object of different rules. And he says that Germans themselves want this. Bullshit. Germany acts upon 'moral obligations' and does not want to be subject to different rules.

Collknow you cheap fuckface stand up!
Admit that you failed on all accounts in this thread.
You abused Churchill searching for someone who hates like you. You failed.
You tried to sell us 'special rules for Germany' trying to disguise this blatant racist approach as 'self imposed moral obligation'.
You failed.
You see Germans different from other people. You think Germans are different because they are Germans.

And look at mudthefunky .... not one word. he stands by, he grins and farts around. Belch, what a tool.

Everyone who doesn't tell CollKnow to shut the fuck up with his ignorant racist yada is a bloody racist as well. Everyone who does not feel the repulsive odor of CollKnows views about people should be send to the middle ages with out a return ticket.


How would one say the above in German? Piel!, perhaps you'd like to answer?
we're discussing it, so it's not secret.

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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:58 pm

MeltingKinderSurprise wrote:He wants Germany to be object of different rules. And he says that Germans themselves want this. Bullshit.


I didn't say anywhere that Germany wants to be subject to different rules - I said I want Germany to be subject to different rules. The only thing I said we agreed on was the notion that Germany has special moral obligations. Candy wrongly claimed Germany doesn't view itself as subject to special moral obligations.

You have demonstrated several times on this thread your inability to represent truthfully what others have said. You appear to be suffering either from acute reading problems or mental illness.

Piel! wrote:HerrTanTrum is such a precious gift to this place.


He's the Little Emperor of Political Stew, isn't he? :o

There are a number of objectionable posters on this board, but only one of them gives the impression of being a foul-mouthed six-year old who has just wet his pants.

You have to hand it to him, though - I can't see 'Mudthefunky' and co holding up for much longer under such powerful oratory - I don't think this site has seen anything like it since 1936. It's only a matter of time before they cede this section of the website to him. By next summer he'll have taken over Albo's Place.
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Postby ToyTone » Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:50 pm

I said I want Germany to be subject to different rules.


you made your case, the racist fuck face you are.
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Postby candy is dandy but... » Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:09 pm

Candy wrongly claimed Germany doesn't view itself as subject to special moral obligations.


You obviously have terrible comprehension problems.
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:43 pm

You clearly have terrible problems when it comes to being honest.

This was what you yourself referred to:

candy wrote:the bizarre contention that a nation can have a moral responsibility that is unique to it because of it's history,


Piel highlighted it and asked:

Piel wrote:How can this be bizarre if Germany itself accepts this position?


And you replied:

candy wrote:It doesn't


I.e. you denied that Germany itself accepts that a country can a moral responsibility that is unique to it because of its history.

I have supplied evidence to the contrary, including the words of a recent German Foreign Minister.

And you can't bring yourself to admit that you got it wrong. Fancy that.
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Postby ToyTone » Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:43 pm

Because of a past crime an entity holds a moral responsibility that non-criminals do not.
That a moral responsibility deprives its holder of certain moral rights.
That these moral rights are necessary to avail itself of constitutional rights within an organisation to which it has been freely admitted.


that is the moral responsibility you ass-clown are talking about and every half brain can see that this isn't a position the German government has accepted and has not being asked to accept. Germany does not renounce constitutional rights within an organisation.

candybut has simply stated that you are wrong.

there is not thing you can get here except smug grins from your pals and silence from shocked bystanders. You reduced your self to a racist idiot, CollKnow, in front of our eyes.
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Postby candy is dandy but... » Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:40 am

CK. You remain confused. The German foreign minister is an individual. He can't speak for the entire nation any more than Brown can speak for the UK or Bush for the US.
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Postby Wellpisser » Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:49 am

candy is dandy but... wrote:CK. You remain confused. The German foreign minister is an individual. He can't speak for the entire nation any more than Brown can speak for the UK or Bush for the US.


The German Foreign minister doesn't speak for Germany in foreign affairs. That is an absolute gem.

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Postby Wellpisser » Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:52 am

I wonder if this thread needs Miekes input or would that just be gilding the lily?

What says the Board?

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Postby candy is dandy but... » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:32 pm

The German Foreign minister doesn't speak for Germany in foreign affairs. That is an absolute gem.


We're not discussing foreign affairs, we're discussing collective moral responsibility. He has a mandate to speak for the nation on foreign affairs, obviously. He has none to forfeit German's moral rights.
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Postby invertebrate » Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:24 pm

Collateral Knowledge wrote:
candy is dandy but... wrote:
How can this be bizarre if Germany itself accepts this position?


It doesn't.


Wrong. It does. Joschka Fischer, who was Germany's foreign minister, spelt it out regarding Israel in 2005:

"Not guilt feelings, but a historical, moral responsibility that Germany has for the Shoah. I experienced it again recently during the opening of the Yad Vashem [museum]. There is one nation about which this museum speaks when it shows the perpetrators, and that is us. When I go there, I find the most abysmal, blackest history of my people. That creates this special situation. Not in the sense of feeling guilt, but historical moral responsibility.



FYI:
Fischer has also been attending a 1969 conference of the Palestine Liberation Organization, where Yasser Arafat called for an all-out war on Israel "until the end".
"We have been saying for a long time that Israel is a pedophiles paradise and everyone said we were exaggerating," council head Yitzhak Kadman said.

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Postby Disco_Stu » Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:20 pm

Good work, CK.

And thanks for posting that eloquent quote from Joschka Fischer.

BTW, did I miss something, or did herrtantrum just violate TOS by posting someone's real name, or at least what he thought was someone's real name?
As usual, with the germans, their attacks backfire.
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Postby Piel! » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:56 pm

ToyTone wrote:Are you denying that until recently it was illegal under the Cherman constitution for Cherman forces to be deployed outside NATO areas and that even where they are now deployed that they are not allowed to take part in offensive activities?

If Chermany did not accept that it has a special moral responsibility, why does it limit its military by constitution?


felixpiel
Germany decides for herself what kind of commitment it agrees to, what kind of obligations it feels committed too.
When the Grundgesetz was made, OF COURSE, you find passages which are influenced by the reflections of the horrors of a brutal nazi dictatorship. The conscious and the politics in do of course reflect WW2 the nazis and the Holocaust. But there are no special Nato, or UN or EU rules for Germany.

the rest is simply "Stew Spew" The political stew is a platform for racist pricks like CollKnow

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Postby ToyTone » Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:51 am

mutha is fixing
better a bizarre humor than always angry

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Postby invertebrate » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:15 pm

Disco_Stu wrote:Good work, CK.

And thanks for posting that eloquent quote from Joschka Fischer.


It is a circle jerk... Disco_Shlomo, "Two Strikes" and CD.... getting eachother off
"We have been saying for a long time that Israel is a pedophiles paradise and everyone said we were exaggerating," council head Yitzhak Kadman said.

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Postby ToyTone » Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:26 pm

I can only sincerely hope that Toytone does the decent thing and gasses himself and his family.


http://politicalstew.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=65964&start=0

just add this quote from CK, to show that his racist hate is not just confined to this thread. Collateral Knowledge is not just advocating hate against Germans. He expressively declares his "sincere hope" that they kill themselves.

It was too late to include this in my case against him. He got convicted anyway and had to pay. I keep you posted boys.
better a bizarre humor than always angry

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Re: Georgia, Ukraine not getting NATO entry soon: Germany

Postby Wellpisser » Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:04 am

The always excellent Vaclav Havel and others revisit this in an open letter published in the Grauniad:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... gia-russia

Europe must stand up for GeorgiaOpen letter: Twenty years after half of Europe was freed, a new wall is being built – across Georgia, say Vaclav Havel and others
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Open letter guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 22 September 2009 00.05 BST Article historyAs Europe remembers the shame of the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact of 1939 and the Munich agreement of 1938, and as it prepares to celebrate the fall of the Berlin wall and the iron curtain in 1989, one question arises in our minds: Have we learned the lessons of history? Put another way, are we able to avoid repeating the mistakes that cast such a dark shadow over the 20th century?

To deplore or celebrate past events is a futile act if we remain blind to their lessons. Only if these events teach us how to act differently – and more wisely – do such commemorations have any value.

Looking at Europe today, it is abundantly clear that history has not come to an end and that it remains tragic. Twenty years after the emancipation of half of the continent, a new wall is being built in Europe – this time across the sovereign territory of Georgia.

This presents a major challenge for the citizens, institutions and governments of Europe. Are we willing to accept that the borders of a small country can be unilaterally changed by force? Are we willing to tolerate the de facto annexation of foreign territories by a larger power?

In order for the forthcoming historic commemorations to be meaningful both for Europe's collective identity and for its future, we urge the EU's 27 democratic leaders to define a proactive strategy to help Georgia peacefully regain its territorial integrity and obtain the withdrawal of Russian forces illegally stationed on Georgian soil.

Nobody wants a confrontation with Moscow or a return to the hostile atmosphere of the cold war. But, equally, it is essential that the EU and its member states send a clear and unequivocal message to the current leadership in Russia.

As the commission set up by the European Union and headed by Heidi Tagliavini prepares to publish its report on the causes of the Russian-Georgian war, we call on all Europeans to remember the painful lessons of our recent past.

First, a big power will always find or engineer a pretext to invade a neighbour whose independence it resents. We should remember that Hitler accused the Poles of commencing hostilities in 1939, just as Stalin pinned the blame on the Finns when he invaded their country in 1940. Similarly, in the case of Georgia and Russia, the critical question is to determine which country invaded the other, rather than which soldier shot the first bullet.

Second, the failure of western democracies to respond to the dismemberment of a friendly nation, albeit a small one, can have very serious global consequences.

The European Union was built against the temptation of Munich and the iron curtain. It would be utterly disastrous if we were to appear in any way to condone the kind of practices that plunged our continent into war and division for most of the last century. At stake is nothing less than the fate of the project to which we continue to dedicate our lives: the peaceful and democratic reunification of the European continent.


Vaclav Havel, Valdas Adamkus, Mart Laar, Vytautas Landsbergis, Otto de Habsbourg, Daniel Cohn Bendit, Timothy Garton Ash, André Glucksmann, Mark Leonard, Bernard-Henri Lévy, Adam Michnik, Josep Ramoneda


Bizarrely, the first comments focus on Israel. Actually in the Grauniad that is not really bizarre at all, is it?

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Re: Georgia, Ukraine not getting NATO entry soon: Germany

Postby eric84 » Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:33 pm

we urge the EU's 27 democratic leaders to define a proactive strategy to help Georgia peacefully regain its territorial integrity and obtain the withdrawal of Russian forces illegally stationed on Georgian soil.


They should instead urge Georgia not to pick fights with Russia and to avoid having psychopaths as their President.
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Re:

Postby strife » Sat Apr 25, 2015 11:30 am

ToyTone wrote:I will sue you CK, not the board.

your collection will not help you. I consider putting it into my case, since you fabricated the collection and presented it as if I would have written it.


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