Georgia, Ukraine not getting NATO entry soon: Germany

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Postby invertebrate » Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:38 pm

Collateral Knowledge wrote:
invertebrate wrote:
Collateral Knowledge wrote:You are like a child who calls names over and over and then bursts into tears when anyone replies. You don't deserves sympathy or compensation.

pot calling the kettle black...


Apparently this is my 'bursting into tears':

collateral knowledge wrote:I'm not a Jew, though it says plenty that you assume anyone arguing with you must be a Jew. For your next trick will you be shooting yourself in your other foot?


But you can prove the Toytone burst into tears.... you are a ass clown
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Postby ToyTone » Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:55 pm

of course he can't.
But what's much worse is CollKnow's intelligence.

He wants to kick Germany out of NATO... for being a member of NATO.
this is a hell of a request.
and then his uninspiring allegation that I would be after Jewish poster!

oh mon dieu, poor DiscoStoo, has to put up with my resistance, has to deal with me confronting him for his racist and endless stream of attacks on dozens of countries. this poor disco stu is so intimidated, so shocked .... he even told us that he is German. Now, I wonder if he did this to be on my good side!
no, collknow, no disconoodle, you can be German, Irish, Chinese, Chilean, or whatever, you can read the Kama Sutra backwards in Swahili, and juggle with your mothers underwear, I call you a racist, cause that's what you are.
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:06 pm

ToyTone wrote:and then his uninspiring allegation that I would be after Jewish poster!


Why did you invent a Jewish name for me, then, you clown? Quaint German habit?

I call you a racist, cause that's what you are.


So sue me. And I'll countersue, and I have by far the better evidence, and more importantly it's prior to anything you could scrape together.

oh, btw, I have the names of some other Stew posters as well,
if anyone wants me to confirm their names,
ask me please.


I've already asked you and you've shown you haven't a clue. You'll be lucky if you can guess the hemisphere other posters are from.
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Postby ToyTone » Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:17 pm

I have your name & data, a lawyer who is into the story and I will sue you, there is nothing you can do car, .... so forgive me if I direct our attention to other stuff

what about this little bit of information

Even if the Americans do leave, it's only a matter of time before they'll be back. Germany can be relied on to screw up again, go mad and start yet another European war. Except this time it will be fun seeing the Poles kick your ass rather than the other way round.


so, car, you think it would be FUN seeing the "Poles kick Germans ass".... bla bla

so, according to this quote you hold the opinion that nazi germany "kicked the Poles ass"
do you have any idea how many people died in this ass kicking
do you have any idea how many were tortured, de-humanized, put in ghettos and shot into pits by the SD?
this was fun heh?
do you really think you ass-clown have the authority to call me a nazi cunt? unbelievable stuff.
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Postby GayTurk_Izmir » Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:27 pm

''oh, btw, I have the names of some other Stew posters as well,
if anyone wants me to confirm their names,
ask me please.''

really ? do you know my name? only one person here in PS knows my name so if you are correct I will know who is providing you with the info.
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Postby Felix » Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:48 pm

I'm serving you process, Dieter.
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Postby ToyTone » Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:00 pm

GayTurk_Izmir wrote:''oh, btw, I have the names of some other Stew posters as well,
if anyone wants me to confirm their names,
ask me please.''

really ? do you know my name? only one person here in PS knows my name so if you are correct I will know who is providing you with the info.


ha, in this case... sorry GTI, I don't know your name.
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Postby ToyTone » Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:01 pm

Felix wrote:I'm serving you process, Dieter.


the Stew is fun, right, Ehud?
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Postby ToyTone » Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:18 pm

but let's not get distracted from bystanders here....

here another quote from this thread, again from our "it was fun to kick the poles ass" guy, let's call him "car" again, since he does not like his real name.

If you have an argument, make it as an argument, I'm not going to fetch your fucking sticks again, candy.


I know we are touching a sensitive area, "car" likes to tell people that they have no argument and he indulges in lots of gloating and hissing about that his generosity doesn't stretch so far that he helps those who are half-blinded by his excellency.

but... even though I put lots of arguments right in front of him, devote and humble as I am.... put them right in front of him on the red carpet....
he did not touch em, he did not comment on them, he did not mention them.

how can Belgium defend itself against Germany with nuclear weapons?
car, c'mon your brought that topic up.... you can't just let us here gasping for your solution, that's not fair!

or, this quote as a reaction on my announcement that I am going to sue him.
It's not funny if you're the person who's going to be paying in human hair, gold teeth and false limbs when Herr Toytone wins. Sad

"car" how come you make jokes about the Holocaust in a way only nazis and idiots would do.... and in the same thread call others (me) a nazi cunt?

here I really have to insist and I am considering forgetting my friendly approach. Buddy "car" don't avoid the topic. Thousands are reading with us here..... how come you make such nasty and utterly tasteless "funny" remarks using the Holocaust.... and it was not just uttered.. .no, the remark was directed to the audience, fliring and apparently all confident that we find it hilarious?

explain a little, car. please.

to be continued...
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Postby joeyramone » Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:20 pm

ToyTone wrote:
Felix wrote:I'm serving you process, Dieter.


the Stew is fun, right, Ehud?


Ehud? i was unaware that Flexi was Israeli.

Has toytone served a subpoena yet on CK? :lol:
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Postby Felix » Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:35 pm

Anyone who wants to know, I have Dieter's full name and place of employment in Kaohsiung.
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Postby joeyramone » Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:37 pm

Felix wrote:Anyone who wants to know, I have Dieter's full name and place of employment in Kaohsiung.


Please, pass it on. I'll need the info to prepare my thrid-party action to his suit.
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Postby Felix » Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:42 pm

joeyramone wrote:
Felix wrote:Anyone who wants to know, I have Dieter's full name and place of employment in Kaohsiung.


Please, pass it on. I'll need the info to prepare my thrid-party action to his suit.


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Postby joeyramone » Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:50 pm

Felix wrote:
joeyramone wrote:
Felix wrote:Anyone who wants to know, I have Dieter's full name and place of employment in Kaohsiung.


Please, pass it on. I'll need the info to prepare my thrid-party action to his suit.


Lern two spel, yuo mong.


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Postby candy is dandy but... » Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:00 pm

Germany should have no vote or influence whatsoever on who else is admitted to NATO.
Germans have no moral right to be pronouncing on or having an influence in the security arrangements of small countries like Georgia and Ukraine.
A nation and a person are different things. Germany today has certain moral responsibilities which are the result of what it has done in the past.


Ck ducked this argument, which is normal for him.

Ignoring the bizarre contention that a nation can have a moral responsibility that is unique to it because of it's history, Ck's argument is;

Because of a past crime an entity holds a moral responsibility that non-criminals do not.
That a moral responsibility deprives its holder of certain moral rights.
That these moral rights are necessary to avail itself of constitutional rights within an organisation to which it has been freely admitted.

Having reduced his own argument to an absurdity, calling others Nazis is obviously his least embarrassing option.
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Postby ToyTone » Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:16 pm

mutha is fixing
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Postby Felix » Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:17 pm

mutha is fixing
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Postby ToyTone » Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:21 pm

wrong Ehud, sorry, your name definitely is not Thomas Eric.

so what is it, Ehud?

do we have a deal, or is your penis shrinking like a frightened turtle?
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Postby Felix » Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:22 pm

ToyTone wrote:wrong Ehud, sorry, your name definitely is not Thomas Eric.

so what is it, Ehud?

do we have a deal, or is your penis shrinking like a frightened turtle?


Our deal is consumated, Thomas. Or is it Tomas?
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:23 pm

candy is dandy but... wrote:Ck ducked this argument, which is normal for him.


I didn't duck it, I gave my answer, which you just didn't like. As for 'ducking arguments', you hardly ever even enter into one, generally contenting yourself with a slowly unfolding list of sullen questions you expect others to answer.

Ignoring the bizarre contention that a nation can have a moral responsibility that is unique to it because of it's history,


There's nothing 'bizarre' about that contention. The Italian government has just reached a compensation deal with Libya on precisely that basis - that Italy owes a moral debt to Libya for past crimes.

Ck's argument is: Because of a past crime an entity holds a moral responsibility that non-criminals do not.


Yes.

That a moral responsibility deprives its holder of certain moral rights.


uh-huh.

That these moral rights are necessary to avail itself of constitutional rights within an organisation to which it has been freely admitted.


Also yes. I don't think Germany should have the same constitutional powers as the other members.

Germany has a special moral resposibility that the US, UK and other countires do not, not to interfere with the wishes of other European countries to join pan-national security organizations. The reason it alone has that moral responsibility as a result of its habit within living memory of attacking or invading practically all of them. It may currently have the legal right but that is a different matter from its moral responsibility.
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:30 pm

ToyTone wrote:
or...
I publicly give you permission to post all my personal details, as anyone can see, and the conditions are met, and you go ahead to post what ever details you have.
and
you publicly give me permission to post all your personal details, as anyone can see, and the conditions are met, and I go ahead to post what ever details I have.

deal Ehud?


When are you going to publish my personal details, Baron von Munchausen? You said you would, I gave you permission, and... you were completely off target. And you still haven't explained why you ascribed a Jewish name to me. Well?
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Postby candy is dandy but... » Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:31 pm

Germany has a special moral resposibility that the US, UK and other countires do not, not to interfere with the wishes of other European countries to join pan-national security organizations.



The reason it alone has that moral responsibility as a result of its habit within living memory of attacking or invading practically all of them.


Another absurdist argument, that whenever 'living memory' runs out the moral responsibility also ends and Germany can once again do as other nations.
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Postby Felix » Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:36 pm

Germany has genocide indelibly stamped on its national character. That will never change.
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:39 pm

candy is dandy but... wrote:Another absurdist argument, that whenever 'living memory' runs out the moral responsibility also ends and Germany can once again do as other nations.


There's nothing absurd about it. Germany's moral responsibility for WW2 was a factor in West Germany's delayed entry to NATO in the first place. It's the same principle.
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Postby ToyTone » Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:39 pm

Felix wrote:
ToyTone wrote:wrong Ehud, sorry, your name definitely is not Thomas Eric.

so what is it, Ehud?

do we have a deal, or is your penis shrinking like a frightened turtle?


Our deal is consumated, Thomas. Or is it Tomas?


you want to be a lawyer? Learn how to spell, it's consummated, Ehud.

so... shrinkage again, I see.... how boring.

well, Ehud, I got plenty of your data, so if you ever feel the urge to get rid of all you know about me, just tell me.... the deal is still on as I am concerned. Look at our brave son of a car, collknow is still breathing with his real name out here.

but boy is he ducking argument..... but we will not let go, Ehud, won't we? We can't just let him get away with it, right?
A nice lawsuit for Mr. "funny Poles ass kicking" is one thing, but to get exposed as as the racist he is on this public board is another all together.

are you a man or a snake, Collateralluccaccio?
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Postby Felix » Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:44 pm

Dieter, you're batshit crazy. The amoral familialism has finally defeated you.
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:47 pm

Are you still here, Toytone? I've told you, post my full name and address here, you are welcome to it.

And while you are at it, explain why the last time you pretended to identify me, you ascribed to me a Jewish name.

This was an entertaining thread until we reached the point for you to make good on your threats. Sadly you have backed down from taking the plunge. Now you are restricting yourself to dancing the same impotent dance over and over. It's really not very intimidating.

If you were on a building threatening to throw yourself off, people would have turned away and gone home for their dinner by now. You really need to do something to raise the stakes. Giving other posters Jewish names really won't suffice. We're kind of used to that peculiar German obsession.
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Postby ToyTone » Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:53 pm

ok, Ehud..... in this very thread you of my personal data to everyone

Anyone who wants to know, I have Dieter's full name and place of employment in Kaohsiung.


and when I want to come up with yours..... you cop out.... .and call me crazy. ha, losing face is one thing, Ehud, but doing in in front of all the friends you have in this world, is still another.

post my stuff and I post yours, Ehud. I offer you a fair deal after you wanted to expose me here, you lawyer, haha.
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s"

Postby Felix » Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:59 pm

ToyTone wrote:ok, Ehud..... in this very thread you of my personal data to everyone

Anyone who wants to know, I have Dieter's full name and place of employment in Kaohsiung.


and when I want to come up with yours..... you cop out.... .and call me crazy. ha, losing face is one thing, Ehud, but doing in in front of all the friends you have in this world, is still another.

post my stuff and I post yours, Ehud. I offer you a fair deal after you wanted to expose me here, you lawyer, haha.


What's the point? Your 'nuclear' threat is rather impotent, that's all. I don't care if you post my name or employment - what are you going to say? "Eric works for Eric, LLC!!!"

You'll never be able to make me German though, like you.
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Re: s"

Postby joeyramone » Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:04 pm

Felix wrote:
You'll never be able to make me German though, like you.


He has ways of making you talk!
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Postby candy is dandy but... » Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:08 pm

Germany's moral responsibility for WW2 was a factor in West Germany's delayed entry to NATO in the first place. It's the same principle.


Germany could not join NATO without re-arming. When and to what extent Germany was allowed to re-arm was a practical/political argument. The US were in favour more rapid progress than the French and British.


There is no principle that connects the date of Germany's accession to NATO to restricting Germany's voting rights within NATO until some unidentified person dies.
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Postby ToyTone » Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:09 pm

what's my point?

you gotta be kidding me, Ehud.

"to sue you, we need your name."
Look at all pompous length Mother Funk went here to tell me that it's impossible to get name, address and so forth..... ha!

Think of me as Veronica Mars with a dick, and a little more into the real interesting stuff, since I left high school a while ago and live in SEAsia.

I let you go.... I live gmt +08:00 and have obligations in the billiard hall to attend to.
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Postby ToyTone » Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:16 pm

cut the blah and answer my questions, Collater-Al

ToyTone wrote:but let's not get distracted from bystanders here....

here another quote from this thread, again from our "it was fun to kick the poles ass" guy, let's call him "car" again, since he does not like his real name.

If you have an argument, make it as an argument, I'm not going to fetch your fucking sticks again, candy.


I know we are touching a sensitive area, "car" likes to tell people that they have no argument and he indulges in lots of gloating and hissing about that his generosity doesn't stretch so far that he helps those who are half-blinded by his excellency.

but... even though I put lots of arguments right in front of him, devote and humble as I am.... put them right in front of him on the red carpet....
he did not touch em, he did not comment on them, he did not mention them.

how can Belgium defend itself against Germany with nuclear weapons?
car, c'mon your brought that topic up.... you can't just let us here gasping for your solution, that's not fair!

or, this quote as a reaction on my announcement that I am going to sue him.
It's not funny if you're the person who's going to be paying in human hair, gold teeth and false limbs when Herr Toytone wins. Sad

"car" how come you make jokes about the Holocaust in a way only nazis and idiots would do.... and in the same thread call others (me) a nazi cunt?

here I really have to insist and I am considering forgetting my friendly approach. Buddy "car" don't avoid the topic. Thousands are reading with us here..... how come you make such nasty and utterly tasteless "funny" remarks using the Holocaust.... and it was not just uttered.. .no, the remark was directed to the audience, fliring and apparently all confident that we find it hilarious?

explain a little, car. please.

to be continued...
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Postby joeyramone » Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:22 pm

ToyTone wrote:cut the blah and answer my questions, Collater-Al



Please have your attorney send interrogatories to CK at the address that you've sent the service papers to. Or, you can set up a desposition, since you've undertaken legal proceedings. :lol:
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:40 pm

candy is dandy but... wrote:Germany could not join NATO without re-arming. When and to what extent Germany was allowed to re-arm was a practical/political argument. The US were in favour more rapid progress than the French and British.


No government was in favor of re-arming Germany in 1945. Why do you think that was? Do you seriously think there was no moral dimension to the question of when and how much Germany should be allowed to re-arm?

There is no principle that connects the date of Germany's accession to NATO to restricting Germany's voting rights within NATO until some unidentified person dies.


I didn't say anything about waiting "until some unspecified person dies". That's a strawman.
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Postby candy is dandy but... » Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:49 pm

Do you seriously think there was no moral dimension to the question of when and how much Germany should be allowed to re-arm?


As I wrote above, the matter was practical and political, as is documented. Here ( http://www.nato.int/docu/review/2005/is ... story.html ) for example. If you contend that there was a moral dimension then advance your argument.

I didn't say anything about waiting "until some unspecified person dies". That's a strawman.

You wrote
Germany has a special moral resposibility that the US, UK and other countires do not, not to interfere with the wishes of other European countries to join pan-national security organizations. The reason it alone has that moral responsibility as a result of its habit within living memory of attacking or invading practically all of them.


This is plainly absurd, as the only way you can make Germany exceptional is by including 'within living memory'. That is a condition that ceases to apply when the unspecified person dies.
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:13 pm

candy is dandy but... wrote:
Do you seriously think there was no moral dimension to the question of when and how much Germany should be allowed to re-arm?


As I wrote above, the matter was practical and political, as is documented. Here ( http://www.nato.int/docu/review/2005/is ... story.html ) for example. If you contend that there was a moral dimension then advance your argument.


I've looked at your link. evidently you missed these parts:

In 1949, any thinking aloud about German membership of NATO risked generating so negative a reaction as to be self-defeating.


But even cautious US suggestions to consider a German military contribution met strong French resistance. Less than five years after the end of the Second World War, no one in France could envisage German rearmament.


Rearmament, in whatever form, faced strong domestic opposition in Germany and triggered heated debate on the constitutionality of a German military contribution and the creation of a vociferous popular movement called Without Me. Nevertheless, the EDC and the General Treaty were duly ratified. But ratification was problematic in France where opposition to the treaties grew.


Nothing to do with practicality there, and plenty to do with moral objections.

This is plainly absurd, as the only way you can make Germany exceptional is by including 'within living memory'. That is a condition that ceases to apply when the unspecified person dies.


You are being obtuse and pedantic. Which other European countries have

a) attacked or invaded practically all other European countries.

and/or

b) done so in recent times?

The principle is the same as the principle behind French objections to Germany joining NATO five years after WW2, which were presumably just as 'absurd'.
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Postby candy is dandy but... » Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:37 pm

Nothing to do with practicality there, and plenty to do with moral objections.


There is no moral argument in the lines you quoted.

Which other European countries have

a) attacked or invaded practically all other European countries.

and/or

b) done so in recent times?

The principle is the same as the principle behind French objections to Germany joining NATO five years after WW2, which were presumably just as 'absurd'.


So you've dropped the 'living memory' clause, presumably because you see how silly it is.

Lets think about "Practically all other European countries" then. If Germany had attacked fewer countries your moral principle no longer applies. So you are reduced to specifying a number of countries that may have been attacked.
"...in recent times" is equally problematic. Now you want us to accept that there can be a moral principal that depends on an unspecified date rather than an unspecified death.

You couldn't run a game of cards with such vague ideas let alone formulate a moral argument.
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:03 pm

candy is dandy but... wrote:There is no moral argument in the lines you quoted.


Now you really are being obtuse. The objection is implicit. What else do you think the objection was? A sudden irrational hostility to countries starting with the letter 'G'? It certainly wasn't a practical one, as you claimed, it was based on Germany's recent history.

So you've dropped the 'living memory' clause, presumably because you see how silly it is.


It wasn't a 'clause', it was a statement of the obvious.

Lets think about "Practically all other European countries" then. If Germany had attacked fewer countries your moral principle no longer applies.


Maybe, maybe not. The objection certainly applies regarding countries Germany had attacked. Those include Poland, France, the Netherlands, Belgium, UK, Norway, the Baltic States, Finland, Italy, Greece, Czechoslovakia, Yugsolavia and the constituent states of the Soviet Union (i.e.) inlcuding Ukraine and Georgia). Do you have a remotely comparable example of another state doing that? More to the point, of a state doing something like that and trying to prevent other states joining NATO? Apart from Russia today, obviously.

"...in recent times" is equally problematic. Now you want us to accept that there can be a moral principal that depends on an unspecified date rather than an unspecified death.


Does your objection to "in recent times" apply to the French objections in 1950? Were those objections 'vague' and 'absurd' because they didn't specify a time limit too?
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Postby candy is dandy but... » Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:28 pm

It certainly wasn't a practical one, as you claimed, it was based on Germany's recent history.


People don't object ot hostile nations being armed on moral grounds, they object because they don't want to be attacked. That's as practical a consideration as I can imagine.
So you've dropped the 'living memory' clause, presumably because you see how silly it is.

It wasn't a 'clause', it was a statement of the obvious.


So we're back to when 'living memory' ceases and Germany can morally vote in NATO again. Random and arbitrary. Daft.

France attacked a bunch of countries once. Does that place any moral prohibitions on them?

Does your objection to "in recent times" apply to the French objections in 1950? Were those objections 'vague' and 'absurd' because they didn't specify a time limit too?


France weren't attempting to establish a moral principle, they didn't want the nation that had recently invaded them to be equipped to do it again.
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Postby Felix » Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:29 pm

The world is a better place with a neutered Chermany. For some people, history starts in March 2003, when Chermany opposed the Iraq war.
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:38 pm

candy is dandy but... wrote:
It certainly wasn't a practical one, as you claimed, it was based on Germany's recent history.


People don't object ot hostile nations being armed on moral grounds, they object because they don't want to be attacked.


Why are you describing the Germany of 1950 as a 'hostile nation'?
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Postby muthafunky » Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:43 pm

I hope this thread makes it to Famous Dishes...

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Postby candy is dandy but... » Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:44 pm

France regarded Germany as a hostile nation, based on practical experience. France's practical solution was to prevent Germany from re-arming.

Being wary of giving somebody a stick to beat you with is not a moral consideration.
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:50 pm

It's part of the planned Toytone Trilogy of Famous Dishes.

I can see critics finding it a little dark (in my view it lacks the humor of 'We are Winning'), but in time it will be hailed as a classic.
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:59 pm

Candy, other countries regard Germany and Russia as hostile nations or at least ones to be wary of, 'based on practical experience'. You appear to accept that in the case of France in 1950, but you appear to treat it as 'absurd' now.

It's not, especially for countries which were under Russian control until less than twenty years ago as a direct consequence of WW2. whether you prefer to call that a moral or practical consideration on the part of those countries, I don't think it alters that Germany itself has some moral obligation not to obstruct the desires, should they exist, of ex-Soviet Bloc states to gain the security of joingin a western military alliance.

After all, as the Polish president pointed out only a few months ago, Germany's own accession to NATO was in the face of hostile opposition from Russia. Other NATO countries stood by West Germany in the face of strong arm tactics by the Russians, such as the Berlin blockade.
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Postby candy is dandy but... » Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:11 pm

Your reasoning is so muddled it's becoming hard to know where to begin.

Candy, other countries regard Germany and Russia as hostile nations or at least ones to be wary of, 'based on practical experience'. You appear to accept that in the case of France in 1950, but you appear to treat it as 'absurd' now.


There is no argument on this thread about whether or not it is absurd to regard a nation as hostile. I am disputing your contention that because of WWII Germany has forfeit moral rights today.

I don't think it alters that Germany itself has some moral obligation not to obstruct the desires, should they exist, of ex-Soviet Bloc states to gain the security of joingin a western military alliance.


Germany has no moral obligation that is special to it. If it is morally wrong to oppose a new NATO membership, then it is morally wrong for anybody to do it.
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Postby candy is dandy but... » Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:13 pm

oi - why archive this when it's still live?
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Postby pezworld » Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:33 pm

It's easy to find here and this isn't an archive - it's still alive here. And it doesn't get pruned.
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Postby Piel! » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:03 pm

candy is dandy but... wrote:
Germany should have no vote or influence whatsoever on who else is admitted to NATO.
Germans have no moral right to be pronouncing on or having an influence in the security arrangements of small countries like Georgia and Ukraine.
A nation and a person are different things. Germany today has certain moral responsibilities which are the result of what it has done in the past.


Ck ducked this argument, which is normal for him.

Ignoring the bizarre contention that a nation can have a moral responsibility that is unique to it because of it's history, Ck's argument is;

Because of a past crime an entity holds a moral responsibility that non-criminals do not.
That a moral responsibility deprives its holder of certain moral rights.
That these moral rights are necessary to avail itself of constitutional rights within an organisation to which it has been freely admitted.

Having reduced his own argument to an absurdity, calling others Nazis is obviously his least embarrassing option.


How can this be bizarre if Germany itself accepts this position?
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