Georgia, Ukraine not getting NATO entry soon: Germany

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Georgia, Ukraine not getting NATO entry soon: Germany

Postby Doc » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:45 pm

Too soon for Georgia, Ukraine to get NATO entry plan: Merkel
AFP

It is too soon for NATO to provide a membership action plan (MAP) to the ex-Soviet republics of Georgia and Ukraine, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said here Thursday.

A NATO ministerial meeting in December that many predicted would be the occasion for the alliance to extend MAP to Georgia and Ukraine would instead be only "an initial evaluation on the road to MAP," Merkel told journalists.

"The position in favour of membership as soon as possible is not the German position," Merkel said at a news conference after talks with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev.

The NATO summit in Bucharest last April had agreed that Georgia and Ukraine could in principle be admitted as members of the alliance, she said.l

But she noted that a desire to join the bloc was not the only criterion for membership.

"The German position has not changed since the Bucharest summit," Merkel said.

US President George W. Bush pushed hard at the NATO summit for the bloc to immediately admit Georgia and Ukraine, allies of the United States.

His efforts however hit a roadblock, which at the time officials said was mainly due to French and German reluctance to take the two former Soviet states into the alliance and draw Russia's wrath.

Some officials and experts HAD predicted after the summit that NATO would extend the MAP to Georgia and Ukraine more quietly at its meeting of foreign ministers scheduled for this December.

Merkel however seemed to pour cold water on that idea, pointedly omitting any reference to a timeframe for when the two countries might join NATO.
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Postby Felix » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:46 pm

Heaven forbid anyone consider what Ukranians or Georgians want.
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Postby Lavite » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:51 pm

What Ukranians or Georgians want is not relevent. Screw them we got enough useless states in NATO as it is.
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Postby blueeyes_austin » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:58 pm

And the developing Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact II continues to take form....
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Postby invertebrate » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:59 pm

Felix wrote:Heaven forbid anyone consider what Ukranians or Georgians want.


Isn't that what Bush&Co want... so yeah, screw them
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Postby eric84 » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:01 pm

MAP would take 10 years to approve entry into NATO in any case. Georgia is no way ready to a member, Ukraine is a little futher ahead.
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Postby GayTurk_Izmir » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:21 pm

What should be the criteria for a candidate country to join the NATO ?
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Postby Doc » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:23 pm

First of all, it has to be willing to fight the Soviet Union. Oh, right, there is no Soviet Union.
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Postby eric84 » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:30 pm

Here's the criteria under MAP

Aspirants would also be expected:

to settle their international disputes by peaceful means;

to demonstrate commitment to the rule of law and human rights;

to settle ethnic disputes or external territorial disputes including irredentist claims or internal jurisdictional disputes by peaceful means in accordance with OSCE principles and to pursue good neighbourly relations;

to establish appropriate democratic and civilian control of their armed forces;

to refrain from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the UN;

to contribute to the development of peaceful and friendly international relations by strengthening their free institutions and by promoting stability and well-being;

to continue fully to support and be engaged in the Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council and the Partnership for Peace;

to show a commitment to promoting stability and well-being by economic liberty, social justice and environmental responsibility.

Moreover, aspirants would be expected upon accession:

to unite their efforts for collective defence and for the preservation of peace and security;

to maintain the effectiveness of the Alliance through the sharing of responsibilities, costs and benefits;

to commit themselves to good faith efforts to build consensus on all issues;

to undertake to participate fully in the Alliance consultation and decision-making process on political and security issues of concern to the Alliance;

to commit themselves to the continued openness of the Alliance in accordance with the Washington Treaty and the Madrid and Washington Summit Declarations.
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Postby Lavite » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:34 pm

Thanks Eric, that was interesting stuff.
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:35 pm

Germany should have no vote or influence whatsoever on who else is admitted to NATO. Merkel is evidently trying to sabotage the organisation from within. If she persists, Germany should be kicked out of NATO.
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Postby joeyramone » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:41 pm

Doc misses the Warsaw Pact.
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Postby Doc » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:43 pm

Should NATO be disbanded?
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Postby joeyramone » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:44 pm

Doc wrote:Should NATO be disbanded?


No, why should it?

It's done its job quite well, hasn't it? It's probably the main reason Europe was peaceful until the breakup of Yugoslavia. oh sure, there were those little soviet incursions in 1953, 1956 and 1968, but those were the "good guys", right?
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Postby blueeyes_austin » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:44 pm

joeyramone wrote:Doc misses the Warsaw Pact.


Yes, he has stated so explicitly.
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:48 pm

Doc wrote:Should NATO be disbanded?


No. It exists to protect primarily European countries from the bullying instincts of Russia - a country you are an apologist for - and Germany. As such, it's a good thing. It would be good if a few more NATO members - Germany excepted, of course - were nuclear weapon powers, in order to keep the traditional large thugs of modern European politics in check.
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Postby joeyramone » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:49 pm

blueeyes_austin wrote:
joeyramone wrote:Doc misses the Warsaw Pact.


Yes, he has stated so explicitly.


Yes, he loves the balance of power that these oppressive regimes provided. doc's a modern day Castlereigh and Metternicht, all in one.
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Postby Doc » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:50 pm

joeyramone wrote:
Doc misses the Warsaw Pact.


bea: Yes, he has stated so explicitly.

It's an odd habit you two indulge in, this putting of your words in others' mouths.
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Postby joeyramone » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:52 pm

Doc wrote:
joeyramone wrote:
Doc misses the Warsaw Pact.


bea: Yes, he has stated so explicitly.

It's an odd habit you two indulge in, this putting of your words in others' mouths.


Doc, can you provide all the exAMples of offensive operations conducted by NATO against the Soviet union or russia in its 60 or so years of existence?
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:00 pm

joeyramone wrote:
Doc wrote:
joeyramone wrote:
Doc misses the Warsaw Pact.


bea: Yes, he has stated so explicitly.

It's an odd habit you two indulge in, this putting of your words in others' mouths.


Doc, can you provide all the exAMples of offensive operations conducted by NATO against the Soviet union or russia in its 60 or so years of existence?


That's easy. Only this week, Alaska and Hull 'provoked' Russia by 'encircling' it.
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Postby blueeyes_austin » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:09 pm

http://www.politicalstew.com/forum/view ... sc&start=0

I object to superpower hegemony, certainly. I'd prefer a balance of power, without a world bully. Detente worked, and Reagan and the Soviets fucked it up.


Your posting history on this one hasn't vanished into the ether, Doc.
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Postby joeyramone » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:19 pm

blueeyes_austin wrote:http://www.politicalstew.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60398&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I object to superpower hegemony, certainly. I'd prefer a balance of power, without a world bully. Detente worked, and Reagan and the Soviets fucked it up.


Your posting history on this one hasn't vanished into the ether, Doc.


odd how we recall what he posted better than he did.
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Postby Doc » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:20 pm

"I object to superpower hegemony, certainly. I'd prefer a balance of power, without a world bully."
Sounds fine to me.
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Postby joeyramone » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:20 pm

Doc wrote:"I object to superpower hegemony, certainly. I'd prefer a balance of power, without a world bully."
Sounds fine to me.


You'd prefer two. Oarsum.
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Postby blueeyes_austin » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:21 pm

Detente worked, and Reagan and the Soviets fucked it up.


Missed that bit, you did, Doc.

Proof that you wish the Warsaw Pact still existed.
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Postby Doc » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:23 pm

No it isn't.
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Postby joeyramone » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:24 pm

blueeyes_austin wrote:
Detente worked, and Reagan and the Soviets fucked it up.


Missed that bit, you did, Doc.

Proof that you wish the Warsaw Pact still existed.


Zero credibility.
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Postby blueeyes_austin » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:25 pm

Doc wrote:No it isn't.


Yes, it is. There's no other possible interpretation. If you wish detente had continued then you have to wish that the parties to detente still existed.
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Postby joeyramone » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:26 pm

blueeyes_austin wrote:
Doc wrote:No it isn't.


Yes, it is. There's no other possible interpretation. If you wish detente had continued then you have to wish that the parties to detente still existed.


yeah, and what did the soviets fuck up? giving up their sphere of influence over 1/6 of the globe?
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Postby blueeyes_austin » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:28 pm

I think it is also worthwhile repeating my response to his outrageous claim as well:

So, let's be clear, here, about what Doc supports. In order to keep his sensitive Canadian sensibilities intact up in Ottawa or Toronto, or wherever the man of mystery is at the moment he would be perfectly happy to consign millions upon millions of Central and Eastern Europeans to a life of privation and terror. Just so that the US is balanced. He is willing to see the Gulags return, just so the US is balanced. He is willing to countence all of the horrors of Soviet Communism for his own peace of mind.

That's a hell of a position to take, Doc. That's one heck of a bill others need to pay so that you aren't offended by a "bully."
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Postby Doc » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:32 pm

blue eyes, having a world where US power is balanced by other powers doesn't equal going back to the worst excesses of the Soviet Union, as much as you enjoy painting it that way.
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Postby blueeyes_austin » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:34 pm

Doc wrote:blue eyes, having a world where US power is balanced by other powers doesn't equal going back to the worst excesses of the Soviet Union, as much as you enjoy painting it that way.


That's not what you wrote, though. You specifically lamented that detente--and thus the Soviet Union--still existed.
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Postby joeyramone » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:35 pm

Doc wrote:blue eyes, having a world where US power is balanced by other powers doesn't equal going back to the worst excesses of the Soviet Union, as much as you enjoy painting it that way.


let's see who would be the candidates:

-China, a communist authoritarian government who probably laughed at the thought of Guantanamo confinement being "inhumane".

-Russia, a semi-dicatatorship featuring oligarchs, limited press freedom, random executions of critics, and war crimes in Chechyna on the scale of which couldn't be imagined in Iraq or Afghanistan by the US. And the expansion of borders, and threats to neighbors.

Oarsum. Sorry, sweden's not goign to be the counterweight.
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Postby Piel! » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:13 pm

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Postby invertebrate » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:49 pm

Collateral Knowledge wrote:Germany should have no vote or influence whatsoever on who else is admitted to NATO. Merkel is evidently trying to sabotage the organisation from within. If she persists, Germany should be kicked out of NATO.


This would be the best thing that could ever happen. No more troops sent to Afghanistan.... no patroling the Israeli or somali coastline with german navy vessels.... no more crews for AWACS airplanes.... no more Tornado reconosence jets over Afghanistan, Pakistan and parts of the middleeast... and the best part, no more warmongering yanks and their bases and logitics in a independent country that has been "occupied" by US troops since the end of WW2
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Postby white collar » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:59 pm

I wish Germany had nukes and were a world power once again.
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Postby ToyTone » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:03 pm

yeah, but the reality is that collatereluccia has no idea what he is talking about. Merkel in her capacity as the political no.1 of a important nato country she is entitled to come up with an opinion. She's not american, she's not going to shove in down everyone throat and bully like there's no tomorrow.
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:03 pm

invertebrate wrote:This would be the best thing that could ever happen. No more troops sent to Afghanistan....


Yeah, I'm sure the NATO war effort would collapse without Germany.

and the best part, no more warmongering yanks and their bases and logitics in a independent country that has been "occupied" by US troops since the end of WW2


Ahh the poor German victim story. Even if the Americans do leave, it's only a matter of time before they'll be back. Germany can be relied on to screw up again, go mad and start yet another European war. Except this time it will be fun seeing the Poles kick your ass rather than the other way round.
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:05 pm

white collar wrote:I wish Germany had nukes and were a world power once again.


Sure. I mean it worked so well last time, didn't it...?
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Postby white collar » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:09 pm

Collateral Knowledge wrote:
white collar wrote:I wish Germany had nukes and were a world power once again.


Sure. I mean it worked so well last time, didn't it...?


I'd give it another chance. Germany really has to stop punishing itself for what was done 69 years ago and become what it should be - a great power.
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:09 pm

ToyTone wrote:Merkel in her capacity as the political no.1 of a important nato country she is entitled to come up with an opinion.


Germany is not an important NATO country, it's merely a country that has to have a close eye kept on it in case it starts yet another European war.

she's not going to shove in down everyone throat and bully like there's no tomorrow.


That's exactly what she's doing by trying to prevent smaller countries becoming NATO members. Evidently you are too thick, ignorant or dishonest to be aware that the bullying of small European countries was the German national pastime in the 20th Century. Germans have no moral right to be pronouncing on or having an influence in the security arrangements of small countries like Georgia and Ukraine. You and Russia have done quite enough harm to them in recent decades as it is.
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Postby candy is dandy but... » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:11 pm

CK, who's past actions limit your moral rights?
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Postby white collar » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:12 pm

That's exactly what she's doing by trying to prevent smaller countries becoming NATO members. Evidently you are too thick, ignorant or dishonest to be aware that the bullying of small European countries was the German national pastime in the 20th Century. Germans have no moral right to be pronouncing on or having an influence in the security arrangements of small countries like Georgia and Ukraine. You and Russia have done quite enough harm to them in recent decades as it is.


Sure, only US has the right to bully others
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:14 pm

white collar wrote:I'd give it another chance. Germany really has to stop punishing itself for what was done 69 years ago and become what it should be - a great power.


I don't see any evidence of Germany punishing itself. In toytone and invertebrate all one can see is the same victim mentality, sense of cultural superiority to Americans and pleasure in Jew-baiting that was typical of German society in the 1930s. I don't really see why an entire continent and beyond should have to suffer devastation again to satisfy Germany's sense of self-worth.
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Postby invertebrate » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:14 pm

Collateral Knowledge wrote:
invertebrate wrote:This would be the best thing that could ever happen. No more troops sent to Afghanistan....


Yeah, I'm sure the NATO war effort would collapse without Germany.

and the best part, no more warmongering yanks and their bases and logitics in a independent country that has been "occupied" by US troops since the end of WW2


Ahh the poor German victim story. Even if the Americans do leave, it's only a matter of time before they'll be back. Germany can be relied on to screw up again, go mad and start yet another European war. Except this time it will be fun seeing the Poles kick your ass rather than the other way round.


Which one of the Shlomo's alternate handle are you? Felix or Disco?
Didn't the US plan(or better threaten) on leaving to such exotic destinations like Rumania and Bulgaria and possibly Georgia. Hasn't happend yet.
Have they ever left a country that they occupied besides Vietnam? Japan? Italy? Germany? Korea? Iraq? Afghanistan?
And as for the poles kicking anybodys ass, I doubt that, they have enough problems keeping their skinhead football fans under control...
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:16 pm

candy is dandy but... wrote:CK, who's past actions limit your moral rights?


What?

If you have an argument, make it as an argument, I'm not going to fetch your fucking sticks again, candy.

PS I don't have a seat in NATO, nor have I been responsible for for the most costly war in human history, so please don't compare me with Germany.
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Postby invertebrate » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:19 pm

Collateral Knowledge wrote:That's exactly what she's doing by trying to prevent smaller countries becoming NATO members. Evidently you are too thick, ignorant or dishonest to be aware that the bullying of small European countries was the German national pastime in the 20th Century. Germans have no moral right to be pronouncing on or having an influence in the security arrangements of small countries like Georgia and Ukraine. You and Russia have done quite enough harm to them in recent decades as it is.


Another one that is geographicaly challenged and talks out of his ass.
Go google the Ukraine and look at it's size.... it is such a small country.
Most people would not consider Georgis a european country, look at it's location, it is further to the east then Turkey and most parts of turkey are considered being in asia
Evidently you are to thick, ignorant and dishonset...
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Postby candy is dandy but... » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:20 pm

I thought you were marginally brighter than that, but I'll spell it out for you.

One's moral rights are not effected by the previous behavior of others. To imply that they are is preposterous.
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Postby blueeyes_austin » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:21 pm

white collar wrote:
Collateral Knowledge wrote:
white collar wrote:I wish Germany had nukes and were a world power once again.


Sure. I mean it worked so well last time, didn't it...?


I'd give it another chance. Germany really has to stop punishing itself for what was done 69 years ago and become what it should be - a great power.


I love the formulation "what was done." So lovely a way of avoiding placing responsibility.

Anyways, looks like my Molotov-Ribbentrop Mk. 2 crack was just about on target.
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Postby Collateral Knowledge » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:22 pm

invertebrate wrote:
Which one of the Shlomo's alternate handle are you? Felix or Disco?
Didn't the US plan(or better threaten) on leaving to such exotic destinations like Rumania and Bulgaria and possibly Georgia. Hasn't happend yet.


Boo hoo for Germany. Did those nasty Americans round up all your Turks and remaining Jews and ship them out of the country to exterminate them? No? So what are you complaining about?
21 minutes of adventure!

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