Australia's First Ever Black Leader

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby emmeff » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:32 pm

Argonheart_Po wrote:The Act restrains free speech.

We must have something to safeguard Free Speech! How about a Bill of Rights?

Then because of the absurdity of the case - the idea - held by janie and equus here - that white people are black people if they say they are black people even if they are actually white people has been held up to popular and public ridicule. This of course has damaged the legitimate concerns and issues of real black people.

But even without one, you're a weasel.

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby Argonheart_Po » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:00 pm

“In my study of communist societies, I came to the conclusion that the purpose of communist propaganda was not to persuade or convince, not to inform, but to humiliate; and therefore, the less it corresponded to reality the better. When people are forced to remain silent when they are being told the most obvious lies, or even worse when they are forced to repeat the lies themselves, they lose once and for all their sense of probity. To assent to obvious lies is...in some small way to become evil oneself. One's standing to resist anything is thus eroded, and even destroyed. A society of emasculated liars is easy to control. I think if you examine political correctness, it has the same effect and is intended to.” - Theodore Dalrymple


Emasculated liars. Easy to control.

And on this very thread we witness people who actually think of themselves as of the left, as dissidents applauding the curtailment - by whatever subtle prejudice or blunt object - of free speech. And also we can and have watched people turn themselves into emasculated liars - proving to themselves in public that 2+2=5.

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby janieblack » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:24 pm

Oh My Fucking God.

Please. Please. Please. Stop.
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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby Argonheart_Po » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:30 pm

Heh!

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby bojangles » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:56 pm

OP still unable to concede that aboriginal culture doesn't need a pantone reference?
Poor deluded little boy.
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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby emmeff » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:12 pm

And on this very thread we witness people who actually think of themselves as of the left, as dissidents applauding the curtailment - by whatever subtle prejudice or blunt object - of free speech. And also we can and have watched people turn themselves into emasculated liars - proving to themselves in public that 2+2=5.

Ooooooooooh. Now I get it. You're just a random word generator.

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby Argonheart_Po » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:20 pm

Ooooooooooh. Now I get it. You're just a random word generator.


And you're the Demonstrated Adverse Social Effects boy aren't you?

What exactly were the Demonstrated Adverse Social Effects?

emmeff wrote:demonstrated adverse social effects


Argonheart_Po wrote:
demonstrated adverse social effects


Which were?


emmeff wrote:Read the judgment.


Demonstrated adverse social effects...

There were no demonstrated adverse social effects were there?

It's probably a silly-college-girl statement born out of some passing adolescent vacuity that I'll bet you now regret.

Or it's an unconscious and almost certainly unknowing echo of the exactly the sort of language used to describe Soviet dissidents by government agencies - not that you would have any idea about that.

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby emmeff » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:39 pm

Yep. Your posts are the lorem ipsum of PS. They fill a lot of space but don't withstand scrutiny.

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby Argonheart_Po » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:46 pm

Weak.

What were the "Demonstrated Adverse Social Effects"?

What could they be....

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby matt_melb » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:56 pm

emmeff wrote:There was no opportunism. No money changed hands. The original articles remain online. No one was imprisoned or lost employment because of the outcome. The respondents found no viable grounds for appeal. There was no diminution of the freedom of speech. But the distortion, collusion and political opportunism have continued ever since.


Emmeff - Bromberg J held that the comments made by Bolt were offensive and, not being justified by the fair comment exception in setion 18D, that they were unlawful. Bolt, and the Herald and Weekly times, were ordered not to repeat the comments.

No doubt there are grounds for dispute about how far 'free speech' should extend. To me, ordering that certain sentiments must not be expressed on grounds that they are merely offensive' is enough of a constraint that it can reasonably be considered diminution of free speech.

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby Argonheart_Po » Fri May 31, 2013 5:51 am

Update from the most racially anxious country on Earth:

An Indigenous Australian Rules footballer was called an "ape" by a child at a match. This caused paroxysms of agony countrywide - the general consensus being that the child was of white trash parentage and therefore was herself a victim too.

This was hilariously compounded by the president of another Australian Rules club who suggested on air that the musical King Kong should use the "ape" footballer to advertise its opening in Melbourne. The general consensus being that he is actually a good fellow and therefore not a racist at all.

Unless of course you are an Australian modern-leftist and then your position is one of outrage. These are the people who during the Iraq war said that Arabs were not suited to democracy. Which of course isn't racist either.

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby stringer_bell » Fri May 31, 2013 5:59 am

You are a boring, lying cunt.

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby Argonheart_Po » Fri May 31, 2013 9:54 am

And you follow me around sniffing my farts.

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby stringer_bell » Fri May 31, 2013 10:01 am

In real life I'd smash your fucking face in so count your blessings you dumb, repetitive, stupid, old, boring cunt.

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby Vince » Fri May 31, 2013 10:20 am

Oh dear, Oh dear. Defender of the white blacks losing his cool? How tediously left wing.
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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby Argonheart_Po » Fri May 31, 2013 12:05 pm

stringer_bell wrote:In real life I'd smash your fucking face in so count your blessings you dumb, repetitive, stupid, old, boring cunt.


Heh.

This is your real life.

And you think about me much more than I do you.

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby stringer_bell » Fri May 31, 2013 12:41 pm

I know where you live mate.

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby flojin » Fri May 31, 2013 12:43 pm

It's not cool to threaten someone with violence and tell them you know where they live just because you don't like what they write.
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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby stringer_bell » Fri May 31, 2013 12:46 pm

It's also not cool to act the hard man with zero accountability. This has been Argon's shtick for nearly 10 years.

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby stringer_bell » Fri May 31, 2013 12:48 pm

Like one or the other basically. If you're like you say you are that kind of talk wouldn't worry you. It does worry Argon because he's completely full of shit.

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby stringer_bell » Fri May 31, 2013 12:54 pm

I'd never do anything but it's amusing that he's incapable of dealing with reality.

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby flojin » Fri May 31, 2013 1:17 pm

stringer_bell wrote:Like one or the other basically. If you're like you say you are that kind of talk wouldn't worry you. It does worry Argon because he's completely full of shit.


I've read argo's post for ten years too, and while I don't agree with his politics, I would never tell him that I know where he lives and that I'm going to smash his face in. Violent threats are serious, and the detail about knowing where to find him is really creepy.

I'd be happy to hang out with the guy, he seems like he has an interesting life, and he has a sense of humor. I like interesting people with a sense of humor, even if they don't agree with my political view. I can't imagine Argo telling anyone he knows where they live and that he's going to hurt them.

And from what I gather, your if your threats do bother him, it's probably because in his line of work he sees people who make good on threats and hurt people all the time. The world is full of violent criminals who hurt and murder people for a trifle, and argo works with these people.

Your threats disturbed me, and they're not even directed at me, so why wouldn't they disturb him? You said you know where he lives and you're going to smash his face in. Those are disturbing words.
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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby stringer_bell » Fri May 31, 2013 1:25 pm

Really? You need an English comprehension test. In the meantime relax. I've been sparring with the demented old fuckwit for ten years. Unfortunately he's still posting shit.

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby Vince » Fri May 31, 2013 1:32 pm

I completely disagree with Argons right wing views but I would never stoop so low as to offer him out for a fight.
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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby stringer_bell » Fri May 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Why? If he'd basically done similar.

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby stringer_bell » Fri May 31, 2013 1:38 pm

If someone basically presents themselves as a warrior up for a fight and you say 'yep, let's go' and then they freak out and try to get you banned - what is that?

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby Argonheart_Po » Fri May 31, 2013 2:07 pm

stringer_bell wrote:I know where you live mate.


Oh dear me.

How embarrassing and childish of you.

And how bizarre.

Did you ever think that as an adult you would be so immature as to be threatening strangers on the internet because you were unhappy at something they wrote?


then they freak out and try to get you banned


Huh?

Complete make believe.


Why? If he'd basically done similar.


Fantasy.

I've been sparring with the demented old fuckwit for ten years.


I have no idea who you are. Although you clearly care very much about me.

What happened to you - whoever you are - that you ended up like this?

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby Moethebartender » Fri May 31, 2013 2:59 pm

stringer_bell wrote:Why?


It makes you appear childish, petulant and creepy. But if that's your thing, run with it. You really seem to enjoy threatening people with violence here in the anonymity of the web. Do you think sort of behavior is in any way admirable? Do you think it makes you seem manly and fierce?

Surely this thread is ready for the Famous Dishes now?
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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby The_Macedonian » Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:10 am

Is Abbot really promising to repeal the part of the law that ended up skewering Bolt ?

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby matt_melb » Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:48 am

I think he's planning to repeal the bit of that law that makes it a crime to 'offend' someone, yes.

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby janieblack » Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:26 am

matt_melb wrote:I think he's planning to repeal the bit of that law that makes it a crime to 'offend' someone, yes.

I'd be ok with that.

I still think there should be recourse, however, if someone calls you (by name) a fraud in the media/public arena without any proof. That seems like slander to me...

If someone says "Bob got money for being Black and he's not Black", then Bob should be able to sue that person if that person was spinning shit and Bob is Black. The difference to me is that Bob is named. It isn't just some philosophical discussion about what Black identity is or how Black is defined... what Bolt did was to accuse specific people of misrepresenting their identity to capitalise on benefits. Without evidence (other than "well, they look like white people to me").
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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby matt_melb » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:46 am

janieblack wrote:I still think there should be recourse, however, if someone calls you (by name) a fraud in the media/public arena without any proof. That seems like slander to me...

If someone says "Bob got money for being Black and he's not Black", then Bob should be able to sue that person if that person was spinning shit and Bob is Black. The difference to me is that Bob is named. It isn't just some philosophical discussion about what Black identity is or how Black is defined... what Bolt did was to accuse specific people of misrepresenting their identity to capitalise on benefits. Without evidence (other than "well, they look like white people to me").

I can think of 3 theoretical modes of redress:
1. Bob can have the relevant person charged with a criminal offence.
2. Bob can bring a civil action against the relevant person and recover monetary damages.
3. Bob can have the person compelled to publish a retraction with equal prominence to the original publication.

Which do you think is best?

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby dBrother » Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:12 am

^^ I'd take the money meself
.

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby Argonheart_Po » Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:21 am

Without evidence (other than "well, they look like white people to me").


They looked like white people because they were white people.

White people pretending to be black people. White other middle class modern-leftist white people convinced themselves that these white people pretending to be black people were actually black people.

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby QPR_Paul » Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:59 am

OT: Am I the only one here who recognises Argon's avatar?

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby Vince » Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:48 pm

The people in those photos are NOT Aborigine and to think they are is ridiculous and if they ckaim they are or if anyone thinks they are they are utterly deluded.

Now can you say such a thing in Oz with impunity or do you risk falling lowl of the law or being sued? Yes or no?
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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby bojangles » Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:55 pm

Vince wrote:The people in those photos are NOT Aborigine...



How do you know?
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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby polardude1 » Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:25 pm

I ma guessing that those in the photos do not suffer the ills of being an aborigine in Australia.
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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby Vince » Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:46 pm

bojangles wrote:
Vince wrote:The people in those photos are NOT Aborigine...



How do you know?


Would I be breaking the law or liable to be sued if I was in Australia and said they weren't aborigines because they are white? Do you know?
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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby The_Macedonian » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:32 pm

Vince wrote:Would I be breaking the law or liable to be sued if I was in Australia and said they weren't aborigines because they are white? Do you know?


Vince, I am a latecomer to this debate, but I believe it would rest on a fine interpretation of the law.

You would probably be fine to stand on your soapbox and proclaim that these individuals are not aborigines. Apart from vocal condemnation from the chardonnay quaffing, caffe latte sipping, tofu munching, sandal wearing, government teat sucking, Australian Green left set, you'd be fine.

However, you would probably run afoul of the law if you were to immediately follow that statement up with another one, to wit "These people have swindled the public purse out of taxpayer's money by claiming to be aborigine"

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that is the distinction.

Incidentally, I do personally know somebody in that category. Blond hair, blue eyes, 1/16 aboriginal (that is, one great grandparent). He got into the Australian diplomatic corps on the basis of his aboriginality. Seeing as only 26 people or so a year were accepted into the Aussie diplomatic corps that year, he leaped ahead of thousands of other applicants. Quite a feat seeing that he didn't even finish an undergraduate degree. It definitely has some advantages to have a little aboriginal blood in Australia.

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby eric84 » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:08 pm

Ok, guess this has to be repeated but here goes:

1) First nations in OZ, Canada and the US have criteria to determine who qualifies as aboriginal. Aboriginal geroups have agreed to these criteria. It isn't some visual test

2)The benefits you get from being aboriginal aren't all that fantastic when you look at the conditions many FNS live in
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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby The_Macedonian » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:23 pm

eric84 wrote:It isn't some visual test


I think Vince's point is that it should be a visual test, and that aboriginality is not simply something that you feel yourself to be, and whether others in that ethnic classification accept your feeling as valid, but actually how you look.

I think this is a fair comment. It just means that some people feel the criteria as to what makes a person aboriginal should be changed. Those criteria did not, after all, come from a burning bush, they are not set in stone, and can be changed by an act of parliament.

Parliament, after all, is a sovereign body, not a delegate one, and people should be free to express their opinion that the law on what classifies a person as an aboriginal should be changed.

The benefits you get from being aboriginal aren't all that fantastic when you look at the conditions many FNS live in


And very true that is. I don't think I saw a single sober FN citizen in Carmacks or Whitehorse, and my heart goes out to them. The people whose photographs Argon is displaying, though, are not, I would think, be of that ilk.

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby Wellpisser » Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:23 pm

Moethebartender wrote:
Surely this thread is ready for the Famous Dishes now?


Nah its still got legs

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby matt_melb » Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:32 pm

Vince wrote:The people in those photos are NOT Aborigine and to think they are is ridiculous and if they ckaim they are or if anyone thinks they are they are utterly deluded.

Vince, I don't understand your level of passion here.

Some people find it important to define themselves, to a greater or lesser extent, by reference to their ancestors. Some find it important not to.

Of those who do, some align themselves more closely with some ancestors and their culture than others.

Why do you care?

It's not like you have to keep a spreasheet.

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby Vince » Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:00 pm

eric84 wrote:Ok, guess this has to be repeated but here goes:

1) First nations in OZ, Canada and the US have criteria to determine who qualifies as aboriginal. Aboriginal geroups have agreed to these criteria. It isn't some visual test

2)The benefits you get from being aboriginal aren't all that fantastic when you look at the conditions many FNS live in


That wasnt what i was asking. i dont give a shit if these people want to think of themselves as aborigines 9although I hope they dont get too many advantages for making that claim)

rather I was asking if I could get in trouble in Oz for claiming they werent aborigines and My understanding now is that i can if I sugest they are cynically claiming to be aborigines but no if they genuinely believe themselves to be entitled to those benefits.

Whether they are or arent and the rules around that are of secondary intererest - although I do think it a bit funny that these whiteys are somehow entitled to benefits aimed at, I would think, others.
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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby Vince » Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:04 pm

matt_melb wrote:
Vince wrote:The people in those photos are NOT Aborigine and to think they are is ridiculous and if they ckaim they are or if anyone thinks they are they are utterly deluded.

Vince, I don't understand your level of passion here.

Some people find it important to define themselves, to a greater or lesser extent, by reference to their ancestors. Some find it important not to.

Of those who do, some align themselves more closely with some ancestors and their culture than others.

Why do you care?

It's not like you have to keep a spreasheet.


I dont care. a bunch of whites choose to think of themselves as aborigines is ludicrous but its not my problem. I cant even get worked up about dole sroungers , asylum seekers whatever.

I do think is very wrong that accusing these people of being cynicaly on the make is against the law. I imagine a lot of these whites claiming to be aborigines are on the make and you should be allowed to say that. But seemingly I am but you australians arent. But you lot dont seem to care. Very odd.
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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby The_Macedonian » Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:54 pm

Vince wrote: I imagine a lot of these whites claiming to be aborigines are on the make and you should be allowed to say that. But seemingly I am but you australians arent. But you lot dont seem to care. Very odd.


We don't care Vince, because as far as federal government Rorts and wasted money goes, its quite small. The number of people involved is relatively small, the money involved is small, and the chances of making a provable case against somebody whom you suspect of being dis-ingenuous in their aboriginality is also small. Take my acquaintance who managed to sail into the Australian diplomatic service, for example: I'll give him credit, he definitely talked the talk on every occasion people ever asked him about his indigenous heritage. To listen to him talk, his great grandmother's blood ran true in his veins, and he supposedly felt a true affiliation to the Ptidinjara tribe or whatever it was.

But its a lot of effort to go for a life advantage, and I don't think many Aussies would emulate his efforts.

And, underlying all that, you have the genuine disadvantage suffered by the black indigenous people, which successive Australian governments have been trying to solve for decades, at tremendous cost, without success.

There are much larger sums of money going to waste in Aussie government spending than this one. Look at the untold billions being spent on illegal immigrants. Considering asylum seekers aren't even Australian citizens or residents spending a single cent of taxpayer's money on them is a bloody scandal, which is why Australians, rightly, get seriously steamed up about it.

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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby flojin » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:46 am

One could almost infer that Australians don't get upset about whites getting an advantage by claiming to be indigenous precisely because they're white! I mean, it's not like they're immigrants. I guess the idea of actual brown people getting public money is the line in the sand.

Benefits for "blacks", not blacks!
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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby janieblack » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:39 am

For the edification of all -- you are not Aborigine in Australia just on your own say-so. That is not how it works. If I say "Hey everyone, I am a Koori woman", that does not make me a Koori woman. Even if great-aunt Ethel was a Koori woman, that is not how it works. Although that is not what Bolt or Argon would like you to understand about the debate...
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Re: Australia's First Ever Black Leader

Postby section8 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:43 am

What's the deal with the asylum seekers? It seems to be a major concern, but I read it's something like 6000 people/year. Is that small a number really something to get upset about?
My revolutionary farmer friend once labeled me as "severely creative." Yes, yes, I like tall-bike building and riding, making fermented foods, wild-crafting and being silent in places where there are no human sounds.

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